ASW TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy submarines are present...

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

In thread (link below) I created scenario for AWS testing:

"Leo's ASW TEST (and scenario) - problems spotted!"

tm.asp?m=967245


During sea ASW testing I, apparently, discovered one rather strange thing... the TF (even if it is ASW TF) would not want to go to HEX you desire to go due to discovered submarines threats (i.e. it would plot totally different path ending in totally different end HEX near by) - 100% weird!

Can someone please verify this?


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S. [Edit]
I put word "ASW" in thread title for better understanding of problem (i.e. no problem with all other TFs avoiding detected enemy submaries but ASW TF is meant to kill submarines and it should go wherever user wants regardless of where enemy submaries are detected)...

[Slaghtermeyer]

I remember reading a while back something about transport TFs deliberately going around spotted subs, but this is the first time I'm hearing that it also applies to ASW TFs

[MarcA]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

During sea ASW testing I, apparently, discovered one rather strange thing... the TF (even if it is ASW TF) would not want to go to HEX you desire to go due to discovered submarines threats (i.e. it would plot totally different path ending in totally different end HEX near by) - 100% weird!

Can someone please verify this?

Yes, I have seen this on many occasions. In fact, if you NEED a TF to pass along a specified pass I find it helps to plot its course day to day, or at least keep an eye on what it is doing every day. It is a useful feature because your CS TF's won't just plod over a spotted sub so you don't have to track them all the time or turn off the CS when a sub shows up.

I have seen TF's use evasive courses even when no known sub is in the area. Why I am not exactly sure but I always assumed they were reacting to the sum of known knowledge, i.e. subs further alongthere path, or perhaps from previous reports and radio intercepts.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: mantill

Yes, I have seen this on many occasions. In fact, if you NEED a TF to pass along a specified pass I find it helps to plot its course day to day, or at least keep an eye on what it is doing every day. It is a useful feature because your CS TF's won't just plod over a spotted sub so you don't have to track them all the time or turn off the CS when a sub shows up.

I have seen TF's use evasive courses even when no known sub is in the area. Why I am not exactly sure but I always assumed they were reacting to the sum of known knowledge, i.e. subs further alongthere path, or perhaps from previous reports and radio intercepts.

Exactly!

But what puzzled me was that eveln "ASW TF" was avoiding submarines and didn't want to go where I wanted! [8D]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Feinder]

Shhhhhh.

[:-]

-F-

[Burzmali]

Yet another reason to micromanage everything. Just remember to station your subs just outside the range of your LBA, for every captain knows it is better to face a hundred Bettys than to drive over a single sub.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Please check this (one picture tells more than 1000 words [;)])...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Halsey]

This has been around since UV.[;)]
Nothin new here.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Halsey

This has been around since UV.[;)]
Nothin new here.

Not really... [:D]

In UV we didn't have ASW TFs - dedicated TFs to fight submarines which we now have in WitP.

If those ASW TFs can't go where we want to kill submarines then something is wrong isn't it... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Halsey]

[:D][:D][:D]

[Charles2222]

That doesn't make any sense to me. I had subs all over the Takao area and didn't have the slightest problem plotting ASW TF's into them. Usually the TF's were going cruise speed with the distance only being one or two hexes. They had a number of hexes that were seemingly without subs if they wished to chicken out.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

That doesn't make any sense to me. I had subs all over the Takao area and didn't have the slightest problem plotting ASW TF's into them. Usually the TF's were going cruise speed with the distance only being one or two hexes. They had a number of hexes that were seemingly without subs if they wished to chicken out.

Sometimes it plots correct course but in most cases it plots destination of it's own choosing...

IMHO the ASW TF should go wherever user want and should not be "intimidated" by sighted enemy submarines! [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Charles2222]

You know, bear with me for a minute, I know this isn't going to sound good coming straight out, but maybe it's adjusting because you're playing retarded. I can think of no other reason when I compare it to what I've encountered. For example, how sane is it for you to plot to a very distant sub, where you see plenty of ones nearby, thereby exposing yourself to more attacks, to say nothing of the difficultly getting back, even for an ASW. The funny thing is that it took a path that included an empty hex, btu by so doing exposed itself to just as much subs as if it had taken your path (although you have no safe hex).

Have you considered the courses of the subs into your difficulties? For example, the plot it has taken, if you were to factor in the courses, assuming it thinks some of those subs will move, may end up with it's redone path being completely clear. In my Takao situations most of the subs are stationary until I hit them, or if not that at least are still there by the time the ASW TF's get there. Just remember, that while you and I know that the subs may be stationary, the computer may just react on the course and the speed (as there is no stop) since there's none of them, mapwise, that say they are stopped.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

You know, bear with me for a minute, I know this sin't going to sound good coming straight out, but maybe it's adjusting because you're playing retarded. I can think of no other reason when I compare it to what I've encountered. For example, how sane is it for you to plot to a very distant sub, where you see plenty of ones nearby, thereby exposing yourself to more attacks, to say nothing of the difficultly getting back, even for an ASW. The funny thing is that it took a path that included an empty hex, btu by so doing exposed itself to just as much subs as if it had taken your path (although you have no safe hex).

Have you considered the courses of the subs into your difficulties? For example, the plot it has taken, if you were to factor in the courses, assuming it thinks some of those subs will move, may end up with it's redone path being completely clear. In my Takao situations most of the subs are stationary until I hit them, or if not that at least are still there by the time the ASW TF's get there. Just remember, that while you and I know that the subs may be stationary, the computer may just react on the course and the speed (as there is no stop) since there's none of them, mapwise, that say they are stopped.

Unfortunately even if you choose the near-by HEX with closest enemy submarine the path is plotted somewhere else...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Charles2222]

Well that's the first one that's made any sense when looking at first glance. Clearly it's first priority is to not let you fish for subs in the destination hex. What's even stupider, if it just have to have a clear hex to end up in, why didn't it go to any of the empty ones that were closer to your desire instead. Are you really playing scen15 with no alteration?

[Charles2222]

Based on the thinking that the AI is considering the courses and perhaps the speeds of the sub, what courses do those subs have? Are they all the same?

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Are you really playing scen15 with no alteration?

No - this is special TEST scenario created from scratch to test various aspects of ASW (both air and ship based) but it shouldn't matter at all...


Please read what I wrote at the beggining of my first message in this thread:

In thread (link below) I created scenario for AWS testing:

"Leo's ASW TEST (and scenario) - problems spotted!"

tm.asp?m=967245

Leo "Apollo11"

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Based on the thinking that the AI is considering the courses and perhaps the speeds of the sub, what courses do those subs have? Are they all the same?

All submaries are stationary and have their target HEX selected as HEX where they are in with "Patrol - Do Not retire". BTW, this is 2nd turn in scenario and submarines didn't move at all...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Charles2222]

Okay, but I thought you might had started out with scen15 and edited it to get that surround-sub routine. That would be a test too from what I'm thinking, though it would be less convenient I would assume.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Based on the thinking that the AI is considering the courses and perhaps the speeds of the sub, what courses do those subs have? Are they all the same?

All submaries are stationary and have their target HEX selected as HEX where they are in with "Patrol - Do Not retire". BTW, this is 2nd turn in scenario and submarines didn't move at all...


Leo "Apollo11"

No, what I'm talking about is what they look like to the outer game; the map level. IOW, doesn't just placing the cursor over the subs give you a course (when you're playing the IJN)? I'm not sure they always do when seeing Allied subs, but I know I've seen it on surface ships anyway.