Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Norm Koger's The Operational Art of War III is the next game in the award-winning Operational Art of War game series. TOAW3 is updated and enhanced version of the TOAW: Century of Warfare game series. TOAW3 is a turn based game covering operational warfare from 1850-2015. Game scale is from 2.5km to 50km and half day to full week turns. TOAW3 scenarios have been designed by over 70 designers and included over 130 scenarios. TOAW3 comes complete with a full game editor.

Moderators: ralphtricky, JAMiAM

ioticus
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:26 pm

Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by ioticus »

Hello Guys,

It's Norm...

I need to clear few things up. This is going to be a bit long.
Bear with me.

Back in my USAF days, I ran a Dungeons & Dragons campaign.
Every weekend, a bunch of GI's would get together on SAC hill at
Griffiss AFB. We used to play just outside the vault where the 416th
Bomb Wing's sealed war orders were kept. My Russian friends would
probably be horrified. Our beer was stuck in the snow outside the door
to keep it cold. A refrigerator is an optional purchase if you live in
upstate New York. If we'd ever suddenly gone "toe to toe with the
Ruskies" on a Saturday evening, my friends and I would probably all
have ended up behind bars until our various squadron chief NCO's came
to round us up. It was a strange time and place. One evening, in part
to cover a small oversight in an area of one of my scenarios that my
fearless adventurers were wandering through, I spontaneously dropped a
little detail in the description of a door. I mentioned a handprint.
Just a little thing, it seemed. Then I sat back and watched in wonder
as the players began speculating on the meaning of the handprint
(there wasn't any - it was just a handprint). Within ten minutes, this
normally stable, sane group of people had concocted a complete
mythology about "Demons from Space" who were now after them. (No drugs
were involved. This was one of the most secure locations in the United
States after all, and we weren't that crazy.) Like any good DM, all I
did through this was smile enigmatically while contemplating the
dynamics of a group mentality. From time to time for months
thereafter, totally unrelated things would spark new speculation about
the Demons from Space whenever we played.

Hey, SAC hill guys. You were a great group. But there never
were any Demons from Space, and they certainly weren't after you.

I have not been posting much here over the last couple of
years. It's not that I haven't wanted to. Long timers here know that
Norm does like to talk... But while I have been working, some of the
critical details regarding the results of my work have been up in the
air. How would my next game be published? Who would be involved? I
couldn't say, because nothing was nailed down. Most of the last couple
of years, I've been in an "if you build it, they will come" mode. I
really don't worry about finding a publisher these days, and I'm more
concerned about getting things right than hitting a deadline. I've
been playing with my friends, and taking pains to avoid saying or
doing anything that could burn bridges I might later need. (I do try
to do that, even if I don't always succeed.) So I couldn't post much
regarding the things gamers most wanted to know about what I've been
doing. Things have been happening. Youbetcha. I just didn't feel I
could talk about them.

A few weeks ago David Heath called, informing me of his plans
for the Take-2 game properties and asking if I'd mind helping out in
the transition for TOAW. He graciously offered to provide support if I
wanted to resume serious development on the title, but I had to
decline. I appreciated the offer. But I'm just not in the position to
handle it right now. TOAW "Classic", as I've come to think of it, was
my baby. I'd love to see it still in circulation. So I agreed to
assist, with some pretty serious constraints. David asked if he could
mention my agreement to assist, and I said yes. Why not?

Being a bit snowed under right now, I didn't make any public
comments of my own - even though I was encouraged to do so. In
retrospect, that may have been a mistake. Remember that handprint on
the door? "Demons from Space": all it takes is a bit of silence. The
enigmatic smile is apparently unnecessary. It was funny 25 years ago.
Now I find it may have happened again, and not everyone is amused.

To paraphrase Sigmund Freud, "sometime a handprint on a door
is just a handprint on a door."

Here's what's really going on with Norm: The Russo-Japanese
title is a real game. It's sharp, I'm proud of it, and it's pretty
much ready to go out the door. It has generated very encouraging test
feedback from some of the guys associated with the Russo-Japanese War
Research Society. Jim Rose (the founder of Talonsoft, and a personal
friend) and I will be publishing the game as Storm Eagle Studios. The
title is to be "Distant Guns: The Russo-Japanese War at Sea", and it
covers the naval battles of 1904-1905 on a tactical level. We plan to
follow this title reasonably quickly (not just data and art,
considerable additional coding will be required) with WWI and WWII
period releases. An operational-campaign element is in the works, on
the side, as an eventual add-on. We also have an operational land
campaign engine ("project Ivan") at an advanced stage of development.
It's nowhere near as ready as the RJW title, but it's coming down the
tracks - and while it is quite different in many respects, it could be
considered a competitor to Classic TOAW. When the time comes, you can
be the judge. Everything I'm doing these days is real-time and 3d
based. The same kind of attention to what I consider fundamentals
(...if a shell of a certain weight flies in this way, at this
velocity, and strikes a target with this amount of armor of this
particular type at this point, at this angle, does it penetrate or
bounce off? etc...) is there, but now that is accompanied by things
like specular lighting considerations and Doppler effects for sounds
emitted by moving objects. The engine is designed to work, with
variations, for both naval and land games, operational and tactical,
or even a mix of the two. This is where ALL of my effort is going
right now.

Things might have been different, but the fact of the matter
is that I had to move on and I am no longer free to tinker endlessly
with TOAW. Even if I were, there would be an obvious conflict of
interest considering my newer projects. Does this mean that I'm
contradicting the news from Matrix? No, not really. But I do want to
tone down some of the speculation other folks seem to be tossing
around in the general gaming community. One bout with Demons from
Space is enough. I do want to see Matrix succeed with TOAW and the
other Take-2 titles they have taken on, and I wish them well. I have
agreed to help them to the extent of replacing Talonsoft references in
the game with Matrix references, dropping their copy protection into
the mix (trivial, it took about 2 minutes), looking at a list of
reported issues (no promises on actions - I think everything is OK in
1.07) and answering questions to the limits of my memory if their
programmers call. I have a soft spot for TOAW, and would like to see
it in good shape when I hand the reins over. I didn't promise the
moon. It's been years since I really spent much time in the TOAW code,
and to some extent their guys will be on their own when they start
doing their own tinkering. I do know that the combat problem spotted
in v1.06 was corrected in the v1.07 update (never officially
released), and that there was some additional work as well. But for
the life of me, even I don't really remember what v1.07 brings to the
table over v1.06. I can't find my notes: embarrassing but true. I'm
not sure what Matrix' plans are for changes. At a guess, I think they
may be replacing some portion of the graphics (not hard, since it's
all in bmp format, and potentially rewarding) and flexing their
independent programming muscles to do things like expanding the number
of events available in the event engine. I also suspect they have some
fairly nice new or updated scenarios in mind. I've actually encouraged
them to avoid being too ambitious with changes right off the bat. I
really do wish them well, but their task won't be easy. Even I don't
really know my way around the TOAW code any more.

I've pulled a few comments out of recent postings in this
newsgroup for specific responses:

>David Heath confirmed on Matrix's boards that
>Norm Koger is working on TOAW: The
>Matrix Edition...."

Technically true, but it can be interpreted to imply quite a
bit more than is actually the case. I've agreed to provide assistance
to the extent that it does not impact my other projects in any way.
That's mostly a matter of helping them get started (mostly done
already) and trying to answer as many questions as I can without
spending a bunch of time digging around when they start their own
tinkering. I do not currently plan to implement any new features in
code.

>I distinctly remember something about Norm Koger
>having a patch for TOAW with new features and
>bug-fixes that was never even released by
>Talonsoft"

True. This was the 1.07 update. It is the basis from which the
Matrix guys will be putting together their edition of the game.

>Wait, wait... (sits down and breathes) would this
>mean that SUPPORT FOR TOAW WILL
>RESUME???"

I think so, but it will be on Matrix' shoulders. Some of the
guys there are pretty good.

>The latest patch released was 1.06, but that broke
>some features and the wargaming sites I've seen
>recommend sticking with 1.04.

Yep - and that annoyed the Hell out of me. The thing I most
wanted done in 1.06 actually broke part of the combat. Fortunately, it
was easy to fix once I was made aware of it. The enhanced combat
system envisioned for 1.06 works perfectly in 1.07.

>It runs fine under WinXP for me, although some
>people still report problems."

The reported problems have to do with the copy protection
system used. I still play the game from time to time, and there are no
problems on my system - XP of course. The Korea 50-51 scenario really
calls to me. If anything, I can't honestly say for sure now how well
the game runs on systems with _earlier_ versions of Windows.

>Norm Koger kept tweaking things in the patches,
>which is nice that he was trying to improve it but
>it played havoc with some of the earlier scenarios.

Unintended consequences: That's one of the reasons I can't
really tinker with it any more. I just can't take the time to deal
with all the side effects of even the best implemented possible
improvements.

>I think it's great that Matrix is doing this. Matrix
>as a publisher sticks it's neck out financially to
>obtain the rights to these games and suffers the
>upfront cost of QA testing and marketing.

I agree, and there's plenty of room in the pool. We're a long
way from having too many game buying choices for wargamers, aren't we?

>I wonder what ramifications this has for the
>TOAW improvement Norm K. implied
>were already pretty much in the can?

They weren't so much implied as actually stated, if I remember
correctly. V1.07 really is quite good. The last set of changes,
working the way they were designed to work, should at last see the
light of day. Who knows what the Matrix guys may have in mind for the
future? I expect good things from them.

>Hexside rivers en route?

Not from me- too much work. But feel free to lobby Matrix with
your favorite wish lists. I think they'd be pleased if you guys
respond with a list of wonderful changes to implement.

>HOWEVER, should Norm decide to radically
>improve TOAW (TOAW: The Next Gen,
>chough chough) be assured that I will pay
>full price for it.

Hmmm... Hmmm... Er... Oh... Jeez. There's something called
"project Ivan". I wish I could say more... I know: "There's this
handprint on the door..."

>Maybe they can get norm koeger out of
>retirement :)

Norm is nowhere near retirement. He's having too much fun to
retire.

>Here's hoping, though, that updating
>TOAW doesn't mean RJW stays in a
>vaporware state.

Nope. 1) Distant Guns has absolute priority. 2) I don't really
plan to do anything in the way of adding new features to TOAW (though
Matrix probably will). 3) Distant Guns was never vaporware, and won't
be under wraps much longer.

>BTW will MG publish Norm's long
>awaited RJW now that we're at it?"

No. Jim and I have decided to use it as the lead product for a
new company.

That's all guys. Thanks for reading, and thanks for keeping me
in mind. I plan to be posting a lot more here in the coming weeks.
Look for Stormeaglestudios.com to come on line any day now - if we can
just get that stupid text formatting problem in the center column of
our style sheet taken care of...

Norm Koger 2.0
User avatar
David Heath
Posts: 2529
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2000 5:00 pm

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by David Heath »

Hi Guys

This is what I have been saying all along with the exception of Norm's new new company. I was told this was to remain private until Norm was ready to release it. This should also be noted that the Talonsoft projects are not in anyway going to take away from Norm or anyones main projects. Of course I am very thankful that Norm is helping us in anyway and we do plan to press on with the source code once we get the first version out the door.

David Heath
Matrix Games
User avatar
L`zard
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:12 am
Location: Oregon, USA

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by L`zard »

Well then, David;

Looks like your gonna be our boy (whipping or other wise), but know that you've got major support, as does Matrix in general...........

No One promised a 'rose garden', eh?

Easy up, folks; Save the 'hate-mail' for a while, eh?

Let the Matrix people have a chance to speak befor trashing all the forums, as listening is better than drownding out incoming news with rants..
"I have the brain of a genius, and the heart of a little child! I keep them in a jar under my bed."

User avatar
steveh11Matrix
Posts: 943
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:54 am
Contact:

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by steveh11Matrix »

Of course the first thing I did was check out www.Stormeaglestudios.com (not yet up) and then Norm's home page (No further news).

Norm: If you're here checking, best of luck with that, looks like the precursor to something I've been wanting a long time (a truly good WW1 Naval game - what Strategic Naval Gunnery should have been - and I look forward to trying it out with great interest.

David: I'd say this makes things both easier and harder for you! Easier because expectations just got lowered somewhat, harder because it's now virtually entirely "your baby". I look forward to seeing a "1.07 Matrix Edition".

Steve.
"Nature always obeys Her own laws" - Leonardo da Vinci
User avatar
L`zard
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:12 am
Location: Oregon, USA

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by L`zard »


I'll admit that the 1.07 patch refered to in Norm's pst has me interested as well, lol!

Still, it's Matrix's ball to play now...........eh?
"I have the brain of a genius, and the heart of a little child! I keep them in a jar under my bed."

User avatar
*Lava*
Posts: 1530
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:44 pm
Location: On the Beach

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by *Lava* »

Hi!

Well, I think anybody who follows wargaming what-so-ever knows that Norm was working on the RJW. Perhaps, being the realist that I am, I saw no "handprint on the door" (what a weird phrase... I never did like D&D and wish people would just say things like they are).

And that is why I posted a thread asking if Norm would drop by the forums, because I wanted to know exactly how much participation we could expect. Which to be quite truthfull, I didn't expect to be much. That is patch the game and make sure it worked well for XP.

I don't know, did anybody expect anything more than this???

Not me.

There are no surprises here.. let's move on.

Ray (alias Lava)
User avatar
L`zard
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:12 am
Location: Oregon, USA

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by L`zard »

ORIGINAL: Lava

Hi!

Well, I think anybody who follows wargaming what-so-ever knows that Norm was working on the RJW. Perhaps, being the realist that I am, I saw no "handprint on the door" (what a weird phrase... I never did like D&D and wish people would just say things like they are).

And that is why I posted a thread asking if Norm would drop by the forums, because I wanted to know exactly how much participation we could expect. Which to be quite truthfull, I didn't expect to be much. That is patch the game and make sure it worked well for XP.

I don't know, did anybody expect anything more than this???

Not me.

There are no surprises here.. let's move on.

Ray (alias Lava)

Well, I sort of think that many peeps really DID expect a lot, once the word came out that Norm would have something to do with the 'matrix version'.

That 'norm' is involved at all is a good thing, just so that Brian King will have Norms insight when he (Heat) goes to work on our wish-list.

Read the psts concerning 'toaw evolution', and tell me that there's something bad happening here, eh?
"I have the brain of a genius, and the heart of a little child! I keep them in a jar under my bed."

User avatar
*Lava*
Posts: 1530
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:44 pm
Location: On the Beach

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by *Lava* »

ORIGINAL: L`zard

Well, I sort of think that many peeps really DID expect a lot, once the word came out that Norm would have something to do with the 'matrix version'.

That 'norm' is involved at all is a good thing, just so that Brian King will have Norms insight when he (Heat) goes to work on our wish-list.

Read the psts concerning 'toaw evolution', and tell me that there's something bad happening here, eh?

Actually I've been watching the forum quite closely and participating as well.

The fact that many people may be expecting a lot is not ground in rationality, especially if one has any idea in what it takes to develop a game.

I understand how people can get excited when a favorite game of theirs has been left in limbo for a long time and then is resurrected. In fact, TOAW is my all time favorite wargame. Nonetheless, one must temper one's "this is what I want" expectations with "what is intended" and "what is doable."

Ray (alias Lava)
User avatar
L`zard
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:12 am
Location: Oregon, USA

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by L`zard »

My apology, Lava;

Non the less, I DO expect a 'whole bunch' more, now that Matrix is taking over.........

WTF, I payed Take2 for a copy of acow, and now that there is a possibilty of 'MORE' , you can bet your a** I want more, and more after that, lol!

Quite willing to pay for it, as well, eh?

I'm also realistic when it comes to what I expect, and I don't expect anything 'soon'...........but I DO expect, eh?
"I have the brain of a genius, and the heart of a little child! I keep them in a jar under my bed."

User avatar
*Lava*
Posts: 1530
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:44 pm
Location: On the Beach

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by *Lava* »

ORIGINAL: L`zard

Non the less, I DO expect a 'whole bunch' more, now that Matrix is taking over.........

Not unreasonable, me too!

But I think we have to expect a fairly tame baseline (republication + a couple "do dads"), after that.. everything is up for grabs.

Ray (alias Lava)
User avatar
DuckofTindalos
Posts: 39781
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:53 pm
Location: Denmark

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by DuckofTindalos »

"Fairly Tame Baseline" works just fine for me. CoW never made it to Denmark, so I've never actually gotten my hands on it. That + 1.07, and I'll be a happy camper for a good while.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
User avatar
pvthudson01
Posts: 457
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2003 8:33 pm
Location: Chicago
Contact:

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by pvthudson01 »

Everything I'm doing these days is real-time and 3d
based.

this makes me sad :( I hate 3D and RTS stuff, it ruined the wargaming genre

Thanks for the updates though Norm it was good to hear from you again after all these years
Matrix Member since 2003!
JJKettunen
Posts: 2293
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Finland

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by JJKettunen »

nevermind
User avatar
steveh11Matrix
Posts: 943
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:54 am
Contact:

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by steveh11Matrix »

ORIGINAL: pvthudson01
Everything I'm doing these days is real-time and 3d
based.

this makes me sad :( I hate 3D and RTS stuff, it ruined the wargaming genre

Thanks for the updates though Norm it was good to hear from you again after all these years
It's OK if you can pause and take stock, and if it doesn't result in a click-fest. I'm trusting Norm to pull this off.

I used to feel the same way you do, but a friend insisted I try Europa Universalis - and, with all it's flaws, that was/is a really good game.

Steve.
"Nature always obeys Her own laws" - Leonardo da Vinci
User avatar
Grisha
Posts: 274
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 4:00 pm
Location: Seattle

3D, RTS, and wargames

Post by Grisha »

There is nothing very wrong with RTS games in theory, and seeing their use for wargames. The problem has to do with how often Pause is used. In a network game it can be aggravating to play someone who has to stop frequently to check minutiae. Possible solutions exists by mimicking real life. The game can pause itself if new enemy units are spotted, or enemy units get within so many hexes of a friendly unit. If you feel confident with laying down some heavy AI code, pausing can be limited to situations where no 'tactical' orders exist, the pause representing the tactical unit asking to "Please advise." The game engine could even incorporate not pausing for a given situation, based on a percentage of communications being lost due to poor tactical leadership or other C&C factors. In fact, a computer wargame might take the pause function of RTS's and reverse its use: give the game engine sole control of pause, based on whatever criteria is chosen from the options above, or their variants.
Best regards,
Greg Guerrero
User avatar
*Lava*
Posts: 1530
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:44 pm
Location: On the Beach

RE: 3D, RTS, and wargames

Post by *Lava* »

Hi!

There was an interesting news item over at the wargamer today HERE

The vaguish remark concerning "Project Ivan", is worth scoping in on and remembering.

Ray (alias Lava)
Heartland
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Karlstad, Värmland, Sweden, Europe

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by Heartland »

ORIGINAL: Lava
Well, I think anybody who follows wargaming what-so-ever knows that Norm was working on the RJW. Perhaps, being the realist that I am, I saw no "handprint on the door"

Either that, or he was doing something completely different, as I had started to suspect with the recent silence. Glad to be proven wrong though.

I bet the code is "interesting" to start poking about in, without breaking other stuff. I can hardly remember my own coding from last week, much less five years ago, so I can sympathize with Norm not having time to relearn it! It is a sure bet it will be a challenge for the new code-monkeys as well, so best of luck to them!

(what a weird phrase... I never did like D&D and wish people would just say things like they are).

D&D will always hold a special place in hell for bringing the hated, corny and clunky "level" concept to nearly every pen and paper and computer RPG and MMORPG in my opinion, not to mention locking characters into fixed professions.

Still, I can relate to the story Norm told. In a completely different game, we came across a rope bridge spanning a seemingly bottomless gorge, located in some dungeon or other. The game master mentioned that it swayed "suspiciously" in the updraft, or something to that effect. And suddenly...hours had gone by using skills to try and spot various possible traps attached to the rope bridge that would cause it to snap during crossing, release Indiana Jones-like boulders, set off alarms, and whatnot. The searches revealed nothing, not on the bridge, nor walls, nor floor. The magic user tried without success to locate magical booby traps and wards that would incinerate us with fireballs (or various other cunning and apocalyptic spells) if we touched the bridge or approached it. Long arguments about who would go first across, or if we should backtrack and find another route, and so on and so forth. In the end someone finally agreed to cross the bridge first, and we were all foaming at the mouth with anticipation at what the diabolic trap we were about to walk into actually consisted of...

In the end, it was just a <bleep>ing rope bridge swaying in the <bleep>ing updraft... and there was much laughing, cursing, gnashing of teeth, and throwing of semi-heavy objects towards the (pretty much innocent) game master.

I'm sure there is some kind of lesson in stories like this...but I'm too busy watching for potentially dangerous things to learn it... [:D]
"Spare some change for a homocidal maniac..."
-- Homeless guy in the London subway
User avatar
DuckofTindalos
Posts: 39781
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:53 pm
Location: Denmark

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by DuckofTindalos »

Hah! Reminds of me of my old GM'ing days! <looks off whistfully into the distance>
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
User avatar
geozero
Posts: 1816
Joined: Wed May 22, 2002 4:00 pm
Location: Southern California, U.S.A.
Contact:

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by geozero »

Has Norm made it to any of the threads here? I'd feel a lot better hearing directly from the guru, and not speculation and heresay. [:D][:D][:D]
JUST SAY NO... To Hideous Graphics.
User avatar
DuckofTindalos
Posts: 39781
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:53 pm
Location: Denmark

RE: Interesting post from Norm Koger on Usenet

Post by DuckofTindalos »

Hence the Usenet post at the top of this thread...
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
Post Reply

Return to “Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III”