Suggested P-47 Changes

[worr]

Current set up the game and also in mods:

P-47C

Arrival March 1943

Cruise speed 250

Endurance 285 (4.75 hours)

That gives you a range of 1187.5

P-47D

Arrival September 1943

The exact same numbers

P-47N (Available in CHS)

Arrival October 1944

275

340 (2.66 hours)

Range 1558.33 miles

To give you some perspective the distance from London to Berlin is 577 miles. The distance from Iwo Jima to Tokyo is 670; Port Moresby to Truk 1216; Port Moresby to Cairns 522

Without even cross checking the data….I was surprised to see no advancement in range form the P-47C through the D series.

P-47C-2 with 200 gallon tank 1250 @ 10K and 231 cruise speed gave you 1250 miles combat range

P-47D-15-RE had pylons under the wings that allowed for addition 108 gallon tanks to be added under each wing to increase distance 150 miles. Max range was 1800 miles with 3 drop tanks and cruise speed of 195 again at altitude 10K P-47D-25-RE introduced the bubble top canopy had increased internal fuel capacity. I have 1,800 Miles at 10K at 195 cruise speed for the 47D-35

P-47N had range of 2,350 using total of 1266 gallons of fuel this allowed them to escort bombers all the way from Saipan to Japan.

I didn’t cross check the data here, but someone put together practical fighter escort ranges in terms of combat operations one way. However, the P38 was over Berlin before the P51 historically…and did have greater range than this…so guessing this comes from data in the early ETO.

http://www.ww2guide.com/fighters.shtml

Conclusions:


1) P-47C is close enough

2) P-47D based upon the arrival date is an early D version. It should have it’s range increased at least 150 miles. Or you could move back the P-47D date to 1944 and figure it as a P-47D-25 with ranges out to 1800 miles.

A historical illustration may serve as some backdrop:

The 348th FG arrived in Brisbane Australia June 30, 1943 equipped with the P-47D-2s June 1943. There are many web sites that state escort missions were taking place from Brisbane against Japan…but these are all probably quoting one faulty source..and encyclopedia of all things! They actually were stationed out of Port Morseby Jun – Dec 1943 having transferred from Brisbane.

By the middle of August under wing tanks were fitted to extend their range out to New Guinea. Kearby flew for this group. He was an ace who rivaled Richard Bong. He scored his first kill Sept 1943…won the MOH Oct that same year for actions in a P-47D over Wewak from Port Morseby….so the distances involved put you in the higher range…especially since he had enough fuel to kill six IJ planes and one probably. He ran out of gun cam…and landed at Lae with 75 gallons left of fuel! Wewak out of PM was a common hunting ground for this group Jun-Dec 1943.


3) P-47N needs longer legs. Increase range to 2,350.

[edit]First P-47N group was the 318th FG out of Saipan early 1945

All the above are subject to play testing, rounding down, and fudging of arrival dates to meet the real sub prototypes represented in game.

I can do more detailed work on this if you are willing to make some changes. Any chance to help out with this?

Worr, out

[worr]

Ah, the above photo did work...notice the drop tanks under the wings of these razor back P-47Ds.

[Bradley7735]

ORIGINAL: worr

3) P-47N needs longer legs. It should be able to escort from Saipan to Japan. Increase range to 2,350. [/b]

Do you mean Iwo Jima to Japan?

I don't think B-17's can reach from Saipan to Japan.

bc

[worr]

I was actually refering to the P-47N.

The bombers they were escourting were B-29s.

Not that I've ever gotten my games to this point.

[Bradley7735]

Are you sure about this? From what I recall, the P-51's or P-47's were escorting Saipan B-29's from Iwo. (P-51 is on Iwo, B-29 is on Saipan).

The only plane in the world that could fly from the Mariana's to Japan was the B-29. I really don't think the P-47 of any kind could fly with the B-29 the whole way. (my B-17 post was a bad way of saying that if a B-17 couldn't fly that far, then a P-47 couldn't either)

I'm sure you would be correct in saying that the P-47N could fly from Iwo Jima to Japan. I just don't think they could do it from Saipan.

Sorry if I'm wrong. Most of what I've read on WWII in the pacific is naval and generally prior to 1945.

[worr]

I edited the original post...to remove anecdotal evidence.

I actually believe the P-47N was near OK Islands doing escort duty for B-29s out of Saipan.

Worr, out

[Bradley7735]

Thanks Worr. Hopefully your changes can get implemented in CHS.

[worr]

I would also suggest moving the deliver date to Jan 44 and seriously upping the productin number to like 300 per month.

I know Francis Gabreski's unit in the ETO received a handful of 47Ns...but all others went to the PTO.

[sspahr]

Here's some data from p.283 of Dean's "America's Hundred Thousand" (which I just recieved yesterday!).

The bubble canopy P-47D-25 entered production in April '44.

P-47N production started in Sept '44 -- 1816 built. Divide that by 12 and it's about 150 a month.

P-47N combat radius range figures:

556 gal internal fuel, 2000lbs of bombs -- 300 miles
556 gal internal fuel -- 400 miles
556 gal internal fuel, 440 gal external fuel -- 1000 miles

If we use the cruise speed of 275, an endurance rating of 650 would give an extended range of 16 hexes, but if I understand WITP correctly that would allow the P-47N to carry 2000lbs of bombs 12 hexes. Other tables in the P-47 section indicate the plane would need about 4000 feet of runway to takeoff fully loaded.

[worr]

Yea, I figured that is how the date got up there in the mod. I've got Dean too. I like his snap shots...but sometimes you wish he would tell you more about history and less about wing spars and where the electrical wiring went through the fuselage.

I think you need to follow the squadron refits and deployments to see where those deliveries went to....ETO or PTO, or homeland.

Actually the P-47N was ordered before the first prototype flew back in the summer of 1944! But still the 318th FG didn't have them in combat til 1945...and they were the first to receive the P-47N. I like Dean, but I always like to cross-reference it with deployments in theater too.

BTW...your combat ranges above are one way. Sometimes that is confusing. I am not sure which range is used as a standard in game, because obviously there are all sorts of variables (less weight, more tanks, lower MP and Mixture settings, etc) that change that range.

Worr, out

[worr]

ORIGINAL: sspahr

The bubble canopy P-47D-25 entered production in April '44.

First field test was July 43....I'll edit the original post above.

P-47D-25-RE began arriving in the ETO in May of 1944. This is the one with more internal fuel.

The range evolution of the early P-47 was in the outboard tanks.

Worr, out

[sspahr]

I believe WITP calculates the extended radius as 1/3 of max range and normal range as 1/4 of max range. The chart on p.283 shows a max range for the N of about 2750 miles. If we use that figure (cruise of 275 mph times an endurance of 600 minutes) we get an in-game extended radius of 15 hexes (about 917 miles). WITP's 1/3 seems a little more conservative than USAAF numbers. How many hexes is it from Ie Shima to Tokyo on Andrew's Map? I just checked and Kadena is 13 hexes and Naha is 14 hexes. Ie Shima is about half-way btween the two, so an extended radius of 15 hexes isn't unreasolnable, if escorts to Tokyo were a mission actually flown.

I just found this site

that states the runway at Ie Shima was only 3,700 feet. At that distance, the N's couldn't take off with full external fuel, so range would be substantially reduced operating from Ie Shima. I don't think there's any way to require minimum airbase sizes for fighters in WITP. (By contrast, fully loaded P-38s needed about 2000 feet of runway to take off.) So how would we handle this in the game?

This is getting complicated!

[worr]

Well I've taken off runways I wasn't supposed to have before...and not at sea level. But you ask a good question....and not of the game but history itself.

Those were VLR missoins off Le Shima...so they had to be close. You could lighten a lot of ammo from that bird and still have good combat missions.

Page 283 of what? You lost me there.

Don't you think the P-47D in the game is rather mute? It doesn't really offer much different from the 47C. I would think moving the date back would give a better wack at a better representative of the JUG....with longer legs. I'd rather get later better birds, than more of the same. What say you?

Worr, out

[Sardaukar]

Good ideas, IMHO..might edit my own CHS-mod.

[worr]

Do you have a formula to translate miles into hexes in game? Or do you have to go into the game each time to see if a number got rounded down or whatever?

As I understand it the game puts in the max range data.....time X cruise speed and then the rest falls into place automatically, and sometimes clumsily...but good enough.

Worr, out

ORIGINAL: sspahr

I believe WITP calculates the extended radius as 1/3 of max range and normal range as 1/4 of max range. The chart on p.283 shows a max range for the N of about 2750 miles. If we use that figure (cruise of 275 mph times an endurance of 600 minutes) we get an in-game extended radius of 15 hexes (about 917 miles).

[m10bob]

IIRC, ace Thunderbolt pilot Robert Johnson stated in his great book "Thunderbolt" that the 2 most important modifications to the "JUG" was the four-bladed prop and the droptank, (starting with Johnson's model "c"..He stated with the tank, they were able to escort bombers right into Germany, "like the P 51's"(quote).
According to "Combat aircraft of the world", John W.R.Taylor,isbn 0-399-50471-0,Marble Arch House,1969, the model "N" had a 9 hour flight duration, with both internal and external fuel improvements.....
A quote from this book sez "The 1000 mile flight radius of action was intended for bomber escort duties in the Pacific, and 1,667 were delivered from Farmingdale, plus 149 from Evansville" (Indiana).

[worr]

A must read....if only for the enjoyment of history let alone all the good detail.

I still wonder why an early 47D model was chosen over a later and more distinctive bread of the JUG.

Also, the real bearing here is that drop tanks were used in the PTO first...so lessons shouldn't be drawn from the ETO and applied, but rather the other way around...and sooner on the war time line. That picture above is from the summer of 43 in Brisbane. Follow the 384th FG for your P-47 early history in the PTO.



I'll still put up something more comprehensive later.

Worr, out

[sspahr]

ORIGINAL: worr

Well I've taken off runways I wasn't supposed to have before...and not at sea level. But you ask a good question....and not of the game but history itself.

Those were VLR missoins off Le Shima...so they had to be close. You could lighten a lot of ammo from that bird and still have good combat missions.

Page 283 of what? You lost me there.

Don't you think the P-47D in the game is rather mute? It doesn't really offer much different from the 47C. I would think moving the date back would give a better wack at a better representative of the JUG....with longer legs. I'd rather get later better birds, than more of the same. What say you?

Worr, out

On P.283 of Dean's 'Hundred Thousand,' Graphs 35 and 36 give range at various loadings and take-off performance. I think Dean takes his info from the pilots manual.

Looking at the graphs, I think a good compromise for the N in game terms would be to use a loadout of two 150 gal tanks. From the graph that would give a range close to the 2350 mile range you state in the first post, although with less fuel than you quoted (856 gal vs 1266 gal). A 2350 mile range produces an extended radius of 13 hexes in the game.

The above would be for the escort fighter mission. If we anticipated the plane would be used frequently as a bomber, I would say leave the range as is, or even reduce it. CHS, however, classifies the N as a fighter rather than a fighter-bomber.

As for the D, I concur that it should be more differentiated from the C. I think the C should represent the early D model, as well. The late D's (-25 on) had an increased internal fuel. Another thing I wonder about: why is the C faster than the D in CHS? Scenario 15 has the top speed of the C as 412 mph -- that agrees with most of the sources I've read.

[worr]

I've been asking those same questions....and kicking it about. I typed up a work sheet and am working off that.

Want a copy?

You might want to match up gross weights on the P-47N with those gallon figures. I have another source that puts the P-47N at 77.4 Imperial Gallos in the wings.....954 Imperial Gallons with external tanks total....for a range of 2350 miles....VLR mission right there!

As for ground role....it was even a problem in the ETO because those JUGS where huge. As one Austrialian ground service walked up to his first P-47 he asked the pilot, "Hey, where is the rest of the crew?"

Worr, out

[worr]

If you don't have Bodie's “Republic’s P-47 Thunderbolt: Seversky to Victory.”

You can skim some information from here:

http://www.cradleofaviation.org/history ... -47/8.html

Also look on page 283 Graph 34...with 996 gallons P-47N range is even further....with even less fuel.

What CHS gave us is the combat range of 1187 miles...not the max range. I would change it.