Suggested P-47 Changes

[Don Bowen]

What CHS gave us is the combat range of 1187 miles...not the max range. I would change it.

I believe that is correct, that it is intentional, and that it is correct. I would highly recommend against it being changed.

[worr]

For game play reasons.....not historical right?

[Don Bowen]

Official range (and other values) are calculated for a single aircraft, in excellent condition, being flown by a highly qualified pilot over a pre-set course in good weather.

Combat range is for a squadron or more of combat aircraft, many of which flew the day before (and the day before that), maintained "in the field" by average mechanics and flown by average pilots. They must spend fuel in forming up after takeoff, in formation flying, and in aerial maneuvers for proper position before combat. After combat they must re-form and return, perhaps with battle damage. All of this assumes that WITP properly accounts for fuel usage during high-power combat maneuvering.

I believe it is completely historical to specify an endurance that is significantly less than official max range - no combat unit could come close to those inflated numbers in action.

[worr]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Official range (and other values) are calculated for a single aircraft, in excellent condition, being flown by a highly qualified pilot over a pre-set course in good weather.

Don, I hardly think that accounts for nearly doubling of the range. Do you? You don't go from 1500 miles to 2,300 by washing the aircraft, putting in fresh plugs and waiting for a good tail wind.

Besides, the military isn't Cessna. They did not post the best results...they took an average.

Combat range is for a squadron or more of combat aircraft

But I thought combat ranges was by taking a portion of the max range in WITP?

Look at it this way.

The max range for the P-47C in the game is 1187.5. The historical data gives 1,250

The max range for the P-47D in the game is 1187.5. The historical data goes from 1500 to 1800.

The max range for the P47N in the game is 1558. The historical data is 2350

It isn't consistent. While the first two numbers don't raise an eyebrow...they parallel history. The last one does raise an eyebrow because it departs. If you argument is valid then you would see lower numbers for all three.

As for pilot skill and milking out range...nonsense. I've watched high time pilots and low time pilots fly the same aircraft and get the same results often. And this without automatic mixture settings such as in the 47D.

True, the 38 had some lessons learned for milking range out of it by varying MP settings. But those lessons were applied across the board. There isn't some magic to setting mixture. You watch your exhaust gas temperature gauge....and pull back till you reach peak and push back in just a little bit. Most pilots do it by ear.

Worr, out

[worr]

How do you get hexes from miles btw? Is there a rounding down sometimes?

[Don Bowen]

The ranges were set by Lemurs, and he once attempted to explain to me how he did it. I guess I am unable to properly represent his ideas.

Sorry for the nonsense.

[worr]

No worries, mate.

I would still change them then...if it isn't a game issue.

[worr]

Hey, thanks again for your help on the other thread.

[sspahr]

ORIGINAL: worr

How do you get hexes from miles btw? Is there a rounding down sometimes?

Divide the range in miles by 60 to get hexes. Fractions are dropped.

[worr]

For both maps? CHS and original?

[sspahr]

ORIGINAL: worr

For both maps? CHS and original?

I think they have to use the same scale.

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Official range (and other values) are calculated for a single aircraft, in excellent condition, being flown by a highly qualified pilot over a pre-set course in good weather.

Combat range is for a squadron or more of combat aircraft, many of which flew the day before (and the day before that), maintained "in the field" by average mechanics and flown by average pilots. They must spend fuel in forming up after takeoff, in formation flying, and in aerial maneuvers for proper position before combat. After combat they must re-form and return, perhaps with battle damage. All of this assumes that WITP properly accounts for fuel usage during high-power combat maneuvering.

I believe it is completely historical to specify an endurance that is significantly less than official max range - no combat unit could come close to those inflated numbers in action.

Don,

I totally agree with you on this. Operationally there are considerations for formation assembly once airborne, allowance for x-mins of air to air combat over the target, and then the flight home, always with some reserve built in. Thus combat radius (range) is significantly less than specified in the perfect world data charts. This is especially true of fighter types. Doing a 20% degradation on max ranges would not be too unreasonable. It would have been great if the designers would have ranges to be set independently instead of the extrapolated system now being used.

[sspahr]

The formulas for range can be found in this thread

TBD-1 sold short


Cruise speed X Endurance / 60 = Max Range in Miles.
Cruise speed X Endurance / 3600 = Max Range in Hexes.

Normal Range is 1/4 of Max Range
Extended Range is 1/3 of Max Range


What you say about range is true, but the game takes care of this automatically. For extended radius, the aircraft use two-thirds of their fuel flying to and from the target, with one-third for combat, reserves, etc. Normal range uses leaves half the fuel as reserve.

Further, in 1944 and '45 carrying large amounts of external fuel was routine for USAAF escort fighters; the range figures of the P-38J and P-51D in the original scenario and CHS are based on official USAAF figures for combat radius using external fuel. According to those same charts, the P-47N was superior to both aircraft in combat radius in the same situation.

Anyhow, nobody gets to 1945 anyway in this game, so we should actually be discussing the range of the Buffalo I.

(I'd really like to see a CHS scenario with an Aug '42 or Jan '43 start.)

[worr]

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior


Operationally there are considerations for formation assembly once airborne, allowance for x-mins of air to air combat over the target, and then the flight home, always with some reserve built in. Thus combat radius (range) is significantly less than specified in the perfect world data charts.

The military did ranges with times set in place for mil power war emergency power and so much time in climb etc. They also give max range in terms of ferry range....that would be without ammo, bombs, etc. The books aren't dressing it up...they are just quoting the military records.

The game made a reasonable choice in starting with the max range, but not using that for combat....but rather for ferrying aircraft in the game. Extended range and normal range are (7.2.2.7 in the rules) 1/3 of max and 1/4 of max respectively.

Isn't that how you understand how the game works this AlaxkanWarrior? Your 20% is actually generous...as the game uses 33%.

Starting with the max range doesn't mean you end with it in combat.

At least that is how I understand the game rules.

Worr, out

[worr]

ORIGINAL: sspahr
Anyhow, nobody gets to 1945 anyway in this game, so we should actually be discussing the range of the Buffalo I.

Hehe....but if the truth be told I will be looking at the range of the buffalo because of the range of the P-47N and the pecularities of the P-47D....if you know what I mean.

I suppose in the end we are only tinkering...but the more I got into this CHS mod the more I realized they did go for a more accurate/historical approach which suits my tastes more. I like having a foundation in history...but then to play it from there.

Worr, out

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: sspahr

Anyhow, nobody gets to 1945 anyway in this game, so we should actually be discussing the range of the Buffalo I.

Not true at all. I got into Sept 1944 in Full Campaign against AI before my HD crashed. I played by restricting myself somewhat historically. I'd have easily gone into 1945 before auto victory kicking in.

[worr]

Well, almost nobody.

[Sardaukar]

Correct !! [:D]

[worr]

I'm rounding the bend on suggested changes.

I've got about four independent sources and several supporting sources for putting squadrons in action and tinkering with performance numbers---Dean, Bodie, Green and Donald. I also have several squadron histories and more data incoming….as well as good library on the larger war and air war in particular in the PTO.

I think you can engineer this game more than one way...and the more ways you come at it the more accuracy can get at. First, you can come at it via production numbers in the states. You can find how many they produced, what performance numbers they claimed and work from there. Second, you can look at squadron histories and find out when and how they were deployed. Third, you can look at actual missions and see the performance...squadron X out of Base B did a fighter sweep over Base Y which is Z miles away.

A couple things stand out:

1) The first P-47 squadron in the PTO (actually SWPAC) was the 348th FG. Some histories say they received P47Cs others say P-47Ds. But they came into Brisbane in June 1943 three squadrons strong--340, 341, 342nd FS…later 460th FS. (N.B. CHS has the 460 actually coming first! But it didn’t arrive until Leyte Gulf 11/44) I also found a P-47 squadron without its sister squadrons assigned to SEASIA instead of China. I’m sure there is more things like this.

2) By 8/43 the first P-47D group is combat active in the SWPAC (same source that said 348 got 47Cs) P-47C we have in the game (both CHS and original) begins producing 3/43. It was actually being produced in late 1942.

4) P-47D is not distinctive from the P-47C in the game. To the naked eye the real transformation isn’t from C to D as it is from Razorback to Bubble Top. P47D-25 is the next generation Thunderbolt.

5) External fuel tanks were evolving throughout the war.

6) P-47N had longer legs than represented in CHS.

Recommendations:

1) Rework the squadrons according to history.
2) Revisit the performance issues, in particular the climb rate and range.
3) Represent the P-47D-25 bubbletop either by splitting the D into razor and bubble, or use the C as an early D version and pushing back the present D
4) Give the P-47N its due, but move back its delivery date.
Maintain play balance. The purpose for the changes is historical accuracy…however be mindful of the balance of power. Closer scrutiny of American Aircraft doesn’t mean they get stronger…see suggested deletion of 460th FS as an example. That would be a major loss in the game.

[Don Bowen]

CHS has the 460 actually coming first! But it didn’t arrive until Leyte Gulf

The primary source for arrival data in CHS was Combat Squadrons of the Air Force in World War II editted by Maurer Maurer. This indicates that the 460th left Texas enroute Sydney on 4/17/43, so CHS has it arriving 4/17/43 in the U.S.

(Edit)

OK, I actually read the text entry instead of just the tabular data. The 460th did arrive in Australia in Spring, 1943 but it arrived as an Airbase Squadron. It was not converted to the 460th Fighter until 1944.