Suggested P-47 Changes

[worr]

Yea, that's why I like to cross reference with more than one source. They do not always agree, but usually for a good reason if you dig about.

I'm posting not to critice, or complain, but to invite criticism of what I'm suggesting. I realize how much work goes into this...and any player with a singular interest (like the P-47 or just fighter planes in general) can dig further than the guy who is setting the stats for every bullet, plane, ship and tank, etc.

I like sources that round out the facts and figures into stories. The quickest route is to do the AAF directory and just dump into the numbers as listed and hope they are correct. But a history gives some sense of purpose to the units combat role and success...as well as shortages. AAF histories can sometimes be scant on details.

For examle, knowing the larger story of how additional (fourth) Fighter Squadrons got added to FGs would key you off to a late coming just by looking at the numbers. But becasue the Fighter Squadrons are just listed without notation of the Fighter Group this context can be lost on a casual glance. I'm working up a couple work sheets with performance CHS vs Original and Squadrons Data for CHS. I'll notate all the suggested changes when I get there...and you can have at it! I'm sure I'll make some mistakes!

Does Maurer have aircraft types down to the sub versions for the squadrons? Like the 460th shipped with the P-47D-30?

Worr, out

[worr]

It will be another week before I can finalize things.

I haven't read "Fire in the Sky: The Air War in the South Pacific" and want to get through that yet first.

Worr, out

[Don Bowen]

Does Maurer have aircraft types down to the sub versions for the squadrons? Like the 460th shipped with the P-47D-30?

Unfortuantely no - only the primary type (P-47, P-38, etc).

Also, no offense is taken at your (or anyone's) corrections or additional data. I do like to check when something is different by a large amount (like the arrival of the 460th).

[worr]

33rd Fighter Group is under represented. We have the 60th FS, but not the 58th Fighter Squadron, May - Sep 1944, P-47. 59th Fighter Squadron, Jun - Sep 1944, P-47. All three served in China. Why not add the other two?

Also the 58th FG had a fourth squadron added, and interesting one, that isn't in the game: 201st Mexican Fighter Squadron. Of course, it came May 1945. But still...Mexico did declare war on the axis poewrs in 1942. Someone might apprecaite that squadron being in there. It was the only one in the war.

The more I keep plodding through the data the more little stuff that comes up....so it keeps you looking.

BTW...I'm using an excellent resource: Jack McKillop's USAAF Combat Chronology. So you get a feel for when these units actually saw action...not just when the parts showed up in Australia.

Worr, out

[worr]

468th FS is assigned to the SEASIA...but it was part of the 508th FG assigned to CENPAC for training and ferrying of aircraft to the front. Perhaps a typo, or mouse click slip.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
OK, I actually read the text entry instead of just the tabular data. The 460th did arrive in Australia in Spring, 1943 but it arrived as an Airbase Squadron. It was not converted to the 460th Fighter until 1944.

This indicates how hard it is to get this type of thing right. But it appears that an adjustment needs to be made for the 460th, is that correct?

And are we anywhere near a concensus on what changes, if any, should be made to the P-47 variants? And what of the P-38s? I have not been involved in the previous discussions on aircraft - this was mainly done by Lemurs, who is not around at the moment - so I am reluctant to make any major modifications. On the other hand, just because Lemurs is not around, I don't think that adjustments to aircraft data should simply be frozen. I would prefer to keep any required "tweaks" smaller rather than larger, however.

Andrew

[worr]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


This indicates how hard it is to get this type of thing right. But it appears that an adjustment needs to be made for the 460th, is that correct?

And are we anywhere near a consensus on what changes, if any, should be made to the P-47 variants? And what of the P-38s?

Yes. Also the 468th FS.

No, need more time.

I'll document my suggestions and anyone can have at it...but I think the changes wont be drastic and can be easily conceded. If not...then I'll withdraw them. Sound reasonable enough?

Perhaps the most drastic thing is I am going to recommend pulling the P-47C altogether and instead having two D versions...an early D-2-RE (Razorback) 5/43 and a later D-25-RE (bubble top). The British called them Thunderbolt I and II respectively. The later one will give you a tish more range, climb rate increase due to paddle bladed prop, and a better replacement rate. I'm looking at 4/44 for deliveries to begin. The early D replacement rate should be lowered to bring in more in line with what you see for the P-47C now.

The 384th FG was the first P-47 FG in the PTO…and they entered with the P-47D-2-RE June 1943 in Australia. That's the early D I would aim for.

As for the P-38 someone else might be checking the squadrons there...but I would like to suggest pulling the P-38Fs off the West Coast as these served eventually in the MTO. I want to comb through the top speeds, climb rates and ranges. (maneuver and durability are too subjective). P-38F had limits set on power so it is slower though its range is fine. It looks like cruise climb is being used for the 38G and J, not MIL Power. Other aircraft in the game are using MIL power numbers. CHS P-38G range is based upon 600 Gallons not 900 with larger drop tanks.

The 475th FG with its three squadrons should be placed in Darwin instead of the West Coast mid 1943. It was the first FG formed in theater.

Give me some more time…and I’ll lay this out a little better and with sources.

Worr, out

[worr]

I ordered a new book on the P-47 in the PTO...so I want to get that in my rearview mirror first.

[TheElf]

Worr I have been lurking a bit on this thread. With out the benefit o reading everything here thoroughly I am hesitant to jump on board with your P-47 movement. So being at a bit if a disadvantage, a few questions.

Are you reccomending these changes be adopted by the CHS? Or are you modding your own scenario?

Are you advocating a droptank ranged P-47 for ALL models or just the -N?

Finally, just so you know, the drop tank/range issue has been discussed at length in PM between the CHS team. The problem is that the game only allows for three ranges. Max, extended, and normal. If you adjust these ranges for droptanks, you are making an assumption that the configuration for the P-47 ALWAYS included droptanks, and they ALWAYS flew at those ranges. Maybe they did, and maybe they didn't, that reamins to be seen, but
now you have a droptank equipped fighter-bomber that travels at the greater range with a payload that it couldn't have travelled with. I have to go to work right now, but I will look into this a bit more tonight.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see all a/c with multiple range/payload configurations, but given the limitations of the game the CHS is still a compromise.

[worr]

I think you will find that all the fighter ranges in WITP are drop tank ranges. On any given fighter aircraft modeled in the game you cannot achieve its stated range without them. But in order to carry light bombs, or heavy bombs...drop tanks are forgone or swapped and that is what you see in the game with normal and extended ranges. What I notice the game does is takes the best long range number and work it down from there in fractions first 1/3 then 1/4...rounding down the fractions. Not a perfect science...but to make all things even you just make sure you get the first number correct.

However, I was only talking about the P-38G in my comments above. The P-47D-25 did have an increase of internal fuel...so it will bump up every so little...but I don't even know if it will get you an extra hex once the fractions are done and rounded down. I haven't done that yet. As for the P-47N, the range given is a drop tank range already in CHS. It is based upon Dean's numbers. But all other sources has it greater by a third. But I am looking for some combat escort examples from history that would establish that range as a practical point. Runway length may have indeed been an issue. Either way, I don't think of the P-47N have much impact in the game.

Yes, CHS is the target here. The changes fit is philosophy of a more historically accurate representation.

Worr, out

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Worr I have been lurking a bit on this thread. With out the benefit o reading everything here thoroughly I am hesitant to jump on board with your P-47 movement. So being at a bit if a disadvantage, a few questions.

Are you reccomending these changes be adopted by the CHS? Or are you modding your own scenario?

Are you advocating a droptank ranged P-47 for ALL models or just the -N?

Finally, just so you know, the drop tank/range issue has been discussed at length in PM between the CHS team. The problem is that the game only allows for three ranges. Max, extended, and normal. If you adjust these ranges for droptanks, you are making an assumption that the configuration for the P-47 ALWAYS included droptanks, and they ALWAYS flew at those ranges. Maybe they did, and maybe they didn't, that reamins to be seen, but
now you have a droptank equipped fighter-bomber that travels at the greater range with a payload that it couldn't have travelled with. I have to go to work right now, but I will look into this a bit more tonight.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see all a/c with multiple range/payload configurations, but given the limitations of the game the CHS is still a compromise.

Info ony...............The fuel consumption on this beast was noticed very early on, and al models had drop tanks as "standard equipment" as early as active duty, stateside.
Later models had internal fuel improvements, but again, external tanks were standard.

Info only.......The early D models were still the razorback model, (similar to the ones in the 56th FG.)

Trivia.....Many of the droptanks were actually papier mache !
They realized the loss of the tanks once battle began was a loss of metal they could not afford, and the tanks were replaced by the papier mache type.
(Some pilots were actually lost because they had been ordered at one point not to drop the metal tanks in combat, and this just increased the target size and were detrimental to the planes' maneuverability.)

http://www.skylighters.org/photos/pow07162001.html

http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/ai ... pubP47.htm

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p47_15.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_P-47

[worr]

Here is an update on proposed changes:

1) Change the P-47C to an early 47D-5-RE (razorback)



The very first P-47 group in theater, the 348th FG, came already equipped with P-47D-5s and arrived June 1943 In Brisbane. P-47Cs went to the ETO. In game this is the 460th, 340th, 341st, and 342nd Fighter Squadrons.

The change will include a better climb rate but a lower max load, down to 500 from 1500 for bombs as bomb racks were retro fitted to these earlier versions, but not until 1/44. Arrival date for the D-5 razor back will be pushed back from 3/43 and production increased slightly.

2) Change the P-47D to a late D (bubbletop)

This will be a more mature Thunderbolt. Arrival date will be pushed back from 9/43 to 4/44. It will have a better climb rate and a little longer range and be considered a true fighter bomber. Production will be slightly more robust as the 47D-25-RE was a stronger production run.

3) Change arrival date of the 460th FS (the 1st P-47 squadron in the game) moving it back half a year. Historical first combat was 1/44 in Leyte Gulf



4) Change the group assignment for the 468th FS from SEASIA to CENPAC

5) Change the P-47N and allow for longer range and later arrival date. Although the P-47N was ordered for the PTO early in 1944 nevertheless it didn't arrive in theater until much later.

As far as game play, the biggest change will be loosing the 460th FS. It was scheduled for 4/17/43 in the game. But it wasn't in combat until 1/44 in Leyte Gulf historically. The other game play change will be a month longer wait on the P-47 production, but also a stronger late war P-47D and N.

I'll post up my work sheets later this week...in a separate thread.

Worr, out