7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games!

[Reiryc]

Wobbly: As he also states he paid his 80 bucks and so that gives him the right to vent his spleen

I'm curious, but where do you get this idea from?

At the battlefront forums for instance, the makes of CM are up front that buying the game does not give anyone anything more than just the game. The forums are available at the forum owners discretion regardless of what was bought. Tough sounding, but truthful.

I see nothing different in my eula's from matrix games that gives me or anyone else the 'right to vent our spleen' here because we buy any of their games, do you?

I don't know whether it is the type of game WitP is, but I have played UV and WitP now for about 3 years solid. Hiccups and lack of features-I-may-want aside; that is value for money!

Damn skippy! [&o]

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: wobbly
Pasternakski has his opinion and we must all recognise it. As he also states he paid his 80 bucks and so that gives him the right to vent his spleen.

I said nothing of the kind. Please be so kind as to read and understand what I actually say before you summarily join forces with some imaginary band of heroes and tell me to "bugger off."

[Larac]

My concern is not with WitP, but another game LnL Band of Heroes

It is a decent rule set and has a great counter set, but the maps almost hurt my eyes to look at.

I've brought it up as have others, the answer we we given was live with it.

Seems a bit off for a company that "has thier heart in the right spot"

I have a few products from Matrix, but unless it is something that really gets great reviews, I'll be wary now of it being ok for the most part, but something makes it unplayable.

The higher prices are expected, but when you tell your customer to "Get Used to it", instead of offering some type of solution.
Yes, I listed many even paying for new boards, or just give the base map out without any hexs and let us overlay what we want, no response to any of that.

They are running out customers like they have no issues making enough money, which they keep saying is not the case thus the higher prices.

All I want is a map I can use without it giving me a head ache.

Lee

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: Larac

My concern is not with WitP, but another game LnL Band of Heroes

It is a decent rule set and has a great counter set, but the maps almost hurt my eyes to look at.

I've brought it up as have others, the answer we we given was live with it.

Seems a bit off for a company that "has thier heart in the right spot"

Well if it were a computer game it would be a lot simpler to toggle hex halos on/off but I am sure there are considerable costs and complexities for such an option in a boardgame.

I have a few products from Matrix, but unless it is something that really gets great reviews, I'll be wary now of it being ok for the most part, but something makes it unplayable.

This opinion is based on one thing you dislike about one product? Or have the other products you've purchased from Matrix had something that made them unplayable as well?

The higher prices are expected, but when you tell your customer to "Get Used to it", instead of offering some type of solution.
Yes, I listed many even paying for new boards, or just give the base map out without any hexs and let us overlay what we want, no response to any of that.

They are running out customers like they have no issues making enough money, which they keep saying is not the case thus the higher prices.

All I want is a map I can use without it giving me a head ache.

What exactly gives you a headache? The higher contrast of having an essentially white hexgrid instead of black? Plenty of boardgames back in the day had white hex grids. I can't see how you can fault what is essentially an artistic choice and is shown well in all the pictures of the game.

The only real objection with this item that I'd agree with is the fact that the mere thickness of the hexgrid with halo obscures certain terrain, specifically walls and hedges. But did anyone ever consider that the problem might not be with the halos but rather that the walls and hedges aren't drawn thicker? Such a solution wouldn't alter the original artistic choice (though probably a little "lets not look too much like SL" went into that choice as well). Don't know I think it looks distinctive and unique as is.

My prefered solution would leave the halos and make the terrain it hides wider.

I think Matrix should do a print of the mapboards as I prefer them. Maybe they could come up with a detailed order form and we could all just get our own custom mapboards.

I want mine with lime green halos, triangular hex dots, thicker hedges and walls, and printed on simulated or real parchment paper on a velvet lined board.

[rhondabrwn]

Hmmm.... just figured out how to add someone to my "blocked list"

Peace returns (at least to my computer).

[wobbly]

I said nothing of the kind. Please be so kind as to read and understand what I actually say before you summarily join forces with some imaginary band of heroes and tell me to "bugger off."

Well Touche. I never told you to "bugger off" but was quoting - granted not verbatim - the feeling of other posters who, I think you'll agree, would rather you stopped posting so negatively. It was they that would like you to "bugger off".

You also appear to have misinterpreted me. I think you should be allowed to complain until you're blue in the face - or get blisters on your fingers - it is up to others to listen to your opinion. The problem is that it comes over as trollish.

I wanted a bit of realism in the attitude. This is a small group trying to simulate an incredibly complex scenario. The fact there is a list of bugs, wishes and enhancements is completely understandable, but with such a large project there were always going to be things missed. It is difficult to demand the quality control when the topic is so abstract.

They are still putting out patches despite only new sales providing extra money.

I think I am just happy someone tried to do it and that it is as functional as it is. Having no vectored searches and inability to target specific naval targets or task forces does not kill the game for me! It was a design decision and I live with it.

Reiryc: we'll agree to disagree about the right to be unhappy with the product on offer, or more, to make that opinion public.

Sad isn't it how long I've played these bloody games - my wife has never been impressed with my infatuation.

[rhondabrwn]

"Sad isn't it how long I've played these bloody games - my wife has never been impressed with my infatuation".

We really do have to keep things in perspective and never lose sight of the fact that there is a real world outside your window that is deserving of our attention.

I sympathize with your wife [;)] Have you tried introducing her to one of the Civilization games? We can get just as addicted to "Goddess Games" played in a non-violent, defensive, cooperative manner as any guy. The challenge of building a civilization is always appealing.

Of course, on a bad PMS day you could get her to log in to the forum and take on Pasternakski [:D][:D][:D]

Ah... scratch that idea... no one deserves that!

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn
Of course, on a bad PMS day you could get her to log in to the forum and take on Pasternakski [:D][:D][:D]

Ah... scratch that idea... no one deserves that!

How about you knock off the personal slights and insults?

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

I sympathize with your wife [;)] Have you tried introducing her to one of the Civilization games? We can get just as addicted to "Goddess Games" played in a non-violent, defensive, cooperative manner as any guy. The challenge of building a civilization is always appealing.

Worth a go, but I failed miserably. I've tried Mrs Herts on everything. She was never going to like anything violent, which is fair enough, but I've tried civilization-building games, god games, puzzle games, classic games (Clue, Monopoly, Maj Jong, etc) and all she ever plays is Freecell. Endlessly.

[Larac]

But the maps DO make it hard for me to play what looks like a great game.

I have offered to buy it, to buy redone maps, or come to some other solution, as has others.

The answers we got back were not how a company that gives any concern to customers reacts.

The saddest part is that it looks like there was a great amount spent to create the maps, The 1st game was about 49, this game was 70+, the main changes the maps. So if they cost the end user an extra 10-20 bucks, they should be clear, and usable.

I lose walls, hedges, also when I lay the map out all I can see is white hexes I have to look hard to see past the hex layout.

So that is why I and others, asked for someting to fix it.

New maps we could buy, release the maps with no over lay so that we could overlay our own and have maps that we could enjoy the game with. Also then we could also enjoy the art work on the map.

So if they treat me after getting my money this way, why do they belive I will welcome other offerings?

For in my time with them they are 2 Win 1 Lost a very bad record, and a little tact or perhaps thinking before they spoke, would have helped to find a solution.

I am not saying they are terrible, I am saying they dropped the ball, and then acted like there was no issue.

If they will do it once to me, I have to expect them to do it again.

Lee

[Veldor]

.....The answers we got back were not how a company that gives any concern to customers reacts.....

......So if they treat me after getting my money this way, why do they belive I will welcome other offerings?.....

For in my time with them they are 2 Win 1 Lost a very bad record, and a little tact or perhaps thinking before they spoke, would have helped to find a solution.

I am not saying they are terrible, I am saying they dropped the ball, and then acted like there was no issue.

If they will do it once to me, I have to expect them to do it again.

Well its not like the mapboard printings came out all blurry or something. I remember fighting with Avalon Hill on more than one occasion due to blurry mapboards. I mean off-center counters are one thing..moderately annoying but you can live with that. Blurry mapboards are just awful.

It's not that I don't agree with you. But I do see it a bit like complaining about the font choice in a PC game or perhaps the background color or something. And refering to them as defects. Your complaining about what is essentially a design decision and/or an artistic choice. And while your complaints certainly do have merit, I don't believe it warrants quite the degree of negative reaction towards Matrix that you've given it.

I'm sure plenty of others are quite happy with it as is. Perhaps even the majority. I mean you are essentially asking them to reprint a new run of maps, and while you might be willing to pay your $10.00 of that cost, that hardly is enough to ensure that both enough others want one in the first place and would also be willing to pay for an alternate printing...

Now if the vast majority of purchasers do agree on the point then I am quite sure Matrix would do something about it. You can't fault them for not reacting to a demand to expend large sums of money just to make you happy. Its not like your just asking for a replacement map or something. You must realize that, no?

In regard to the unprofessionalism of their response... Well would you rather receive the canned email/posting replies like you get from every other company out there? Would you rather stop seeing almost any posting in the forums from Matrix personnel? Would you rather they stop acting like they are also wargamers and gamers like the rest of us?

No, again, the benefits outweigh the negatives.. And I don't think you would want what else would come with what you would have considered a "professional response".

You said yourself your happy with 2 PC Game products from Matrix. And this is their very first boardgame. Let me state again I don't disagree at all with your complaint. It certainly has validity from multiple different angles. I simply disagree with the weight your putting on Matrix's current lack of an acceptable solution for you.

If they print you up a special map I'd say "Absolutely Awesome". But if they don't I just can't see how you can fault them for that sort of thing..

[Veldor]

Worth a go, but I failed miserably. I've tried Mrs Herts on everything. She was never going to like anything violent, which is fair enough, but I've tried civilization-building games, god games, puzzle games, classic games (Clue, Monopoly, Maj Jong, etc) and all she ever plays is Freecell. Endlessly.

What worked for me was "Zoo Tycoon" and things with animals and such. Then she played "Roller Coaster Tycoon" and from there now she plays pretty much anything. Even got into a MMPORG but not quite wargamming yet. Still working at that (Have achieved victory in getting her to love games like "Acquire" etc. so Im really really close).

Remember no one likes to play games they aren't good at or don't understand. Or games where they aren't able to feel the emotions that come with doing well etc.

"Acquire" looks and sounds like the most gawd-awfully boring game of all time. Its a game about stocks and hotels. I've never had anyone want to play it for the first time. Yet, if I can force them too, I've never had anyone not love the game after being walked through their first one... They see the beauty in the strategy. It's simple yet complex.

I walk them through some of the "neat" situations and choices that come up in the game and they learn why its so fun to play.

Also you might want to sit with her while she plays the game(s). I forced myself to learn all the intricasies of Zoo Tycoon just so I could make it easier for her to play, do well, and understand everything. Proabably be good for your relationship as well...

Good Luck!

[Erik Rutins]

Larac,

ORIGINAL: Larac
But the maps DO make it hard for me to play what looks like a great game.

Do the maps actually physically give you a headache? I have to say I understand that some may prefer less of a grid but this is the first I've heard of it causing actual distress. It's a style choice and some gamers have written thanking us for making the LOS points and hex lines more visible. I can definitely understand having a different preference.

With that said, we can't have every discussion on the forum. We've talked internally about offering an alternate map set without the white highlights, for those that prefer it. We've discussed what that would take in terms of money and demand. We've decided to move ahead with polling the public to see how much demand there is, but we haven't found the time to get that rolling yet. Hopefully you'll see a post about that soon.

So if they treat me after getting my money this way, why do they belive I will welcome other offerings?

I have to say that if the maps are causing you physical headaches I understand your feelings, though I think you are probably unique in the respect of having a physical reaction to the art. If it's just that you would prefer them to look differently, I think distrusting us as a company because of an art style choice is going a bit far. Printing up alternate maps is not a simple, overnight thing that we can easily do for any customers that want them, unfortunately.

Regards,

- Erik

[ravinhood]

Can someone post a screenshot of these maps that people don't like? I'm trying to see this while hex/line in my head and I can't picture it. Lemme see Lemme see.

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Can someone post a screenshot of these maps that people don't like? I'm trying to see this while hex/line in my head and I can't picture it. Lemme see Lemme see.

Just check out the screenshots in the e-store or our games section. It´s all here on the webpage and allways was [;)]

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Lemme see Lemme see.

[:D] Buy the game! I've got it set up map and counters and charts on a small table and Leutnant Plassmann of the local Wehrmacht is about to activate 3 stacks of 8 squads, 2 MG42's and 2 MG34's in an effort to dash across a road, suppress an 82nd's 30 cal and take the first hex of a farm house leaving 4 more building hexes needed to win.

I've lost against myself 4 times now [:D] Argh! Good news is a Stug entered the map to the northwest, drove 5 hexes and is now a burning torch. This time my AB boys are not moving a single hex. But another Stug waits in the wings for an even entrance die roll...

Cool eh [;)]

[ravinhood]

Lol Adam I'm waiting for the computer version. I never could play against myself. It takes away from FOW and the guessing fun of the game to me. It would be like playing Bingo and I'm the only player. lol B 15, N 33, G 54 BANGO!!!! lol sorry not fun.

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

It would be like playing Bingo and I'm the only player. lol B 15, N 33, G 54 BANGO!!!! lol sorry not fun.

And you need to find some way to make renting that big hall cost effective. My last solo bingo session was shared with a bar mitzvah, a Jehova's Witness wedding and Amway.

Amway did well that night but lost a few of their best sales people to the lord.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Veldor


Complaint #1: Matrix games cost too much!

I actually find that these points are good discussion points - there is at least some truth in all of them - but I think more needs to be said to give complete picture of the whole truth.

Costing too much is of course a relative statement on the one hand and a market statement on the other. I sit here day after day and try to figure out ways to produce commercial games that just break even. Try calculating the costs of producing a commercial game and estimate the expected sales and then come back and say Matrix games or any games cost too much. I have to say, I don't see how these guys stay in business !!!

Complaint #2: I’m not paying for the same game again!

I've said exactly this myself - although at the time I was thinking about the HPS/Tiller model where we have to buy the same game engine over and over again to get new scenarios. I bought the Smolensk title and loved it .. but then came to the conclusion that "I'm not paying for the same game again - and again - and again - so I boycotted them for a couple of years - then a buddy got the Bulge Title and kept talking about it - so I caved in a bought the "same game" a second time. Now I guess I realize maybe they are smart. They have figured out a way to get a revenue stream so they can support the games they sell. Now we get patches for every title in the series ( Panzer Campaigns ) every year .. and yes I now own about 8 of the titles ... darn .. how did they get me to do that !!! .. but I grugdingly agree that if this means I get good games that work and that get supported - then maybe I have to pay for that - well somebody has to pay - unless everyone works for free !

So if Matrix can figure out a way to stay in business and give us value we are willing to pay for - then the "I'm not paying for the same game again" turns into .. ."unless there is significant new value in the new release" ... that .. I guess .. I would pay for ...

Complaint #3: Matrix is gobbling up all the wargames!

One of the few titles I look longingly at on my shelf - that I can't play - that I spent hours and hours and hours with is the Norm Kroger WAW - I loved it - maybe even just designing games was more fun than playing them !!! But if all they do is fix it so it runs on XP ... I might "buy it again" because I enjoyed it so much ...

Good thing somebody is gobbing them up ... or they will be gone forever !

Complaint #4: Combat Leader is taking FOREVER and will never be completed!

Valid concern - I think Dave is on this one - time will tell if "never" becomes just "not soon" ...

Complaint #5: Matrix has too much on its plate already!

Valid concern - I hope they are also on top of this one - not that is an unusual condition. Most "businesses" run at or beyond "the edge" .. if they don't .. they are gone. Matrix needs to find the edge .. to do that .. you must push across it ... once you push across it .. you must recongize you are across and then make plans to get back on the other side ... I do believe they are aware they have reached and crossed the edge .. time will tell if they can react to correct the situation.

Complaint #6: Matrix has profit, and not the gamer in mind!

They are two sides of the same coin. There is no profit without the gamers ... and there are no games without the profit ( or at least the chance for profit ) .. the nature of business is to balance these two sides ... those that do .. remain in business ... those that only cater to the customer's every whim and do not watch the bottom line .. do not survive ( I speak from experience ! ). Oh and then the customer ( the gamer ) loses too ! So in order to have a "win / win" .. we have to have a balance that is a "win win" ... otherwise we will have a lose / lose ... there is no sustainable lose / win .. for either "side" ...

Complaint #7: Matrix Games is trying to exploit free laborers!

True - but the free laborers are volunteers not slaves. HPS does the same - they pay new scenario designers a small amount - but not what those efforts would be worth in the general software industry. Overall Matrix and HPS and others are under pressure ( see complaint #1 ) to lower prices .. which means they must lower costs .. and if people are willing to volunteer to help .. then that becomes a viable alternative a viable "tool" in the tool box.

Complaint #8 You’re a Matrix Fan-Boy!

I guess if I'm not a Matrix flailer then I'm a Matrix fan boy - it isn't the first time I've been called names on this forum !!!
[:D][:D][:D]


Though I believe we should focus on issues, not people ... so whatever a persons motives .. it is the facts we should focus on ... hence of all the "complaints" I'd have to say this one is invalid and need not be considered further.

[Larac]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Larac,

ORIGINAL: Larac
But the maps DO make it hard for me to play what looks like a great game.

Do the maps actually physically give you a headache?
[\quote]

Yes they do.

I think it has to do with the eye strain of seeing past them to the picture below, though I am not sure.

But I have tried 4 times to play the demo start up, and each time before I finish I start getting a head ache.

I can play other board games, many with smaler chits without this problem, so I have to conclude it is the maps.

Thank You for the response, though it may have been talked at Matrix, we on the thread(and its been a bit hijacked), were at a loss. This then became feeling of got the money and ran.

Glad to see I was wrong,
Thank you again for looking into this,

Lee Sweeney

PS, if not able to produce the maps at a reasonable cost I understand. Though I will be saddend to miss what looks to be a good game, and my 70 bucks of course