7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games!

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

So the aging amongst us will still game out war because VE Day and VJ Day, the Baby Boom and Flower Power were our childhoods. But few in the "I think I've heard of the Muppets" crowd will take up the torch as we've known it.

Hi!

Yep, I have heard this argument many times now, and it has a certain ring of truth.

When I was young I remember watching TV programs like "Combat" and "Hogan's Hero's." I remember movies like "The Longest Day." And I played with toy soldiers and "patrolled" the neighborhood. [:D] My kid never was into soldiers let alone "patrolling." [:)]

So yes, I think it is a valid point.

Nevertheless, there is interest in warfare out there. You see it in the FPS gang and the strategy players as well.

From what I can figure out, the difference is that the other genre's do not presuppose that the player has any certain body of knowledge and therefore must be introduced (taught if you will), via the game itself. Through a mixture of tutorials, info screens and actual gameplay which is crafted to maintain a steady but easy to understand progression, they succeed in gaining not only the players interest, but enjoyment as well.

Ray (alias Lava)

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
Veldor, I don't want to fire up an argument, but could you please cite an example of anyone on these forums who has asserted this or anything like it? I know that, over the years, we have had a few numbskull troublemakers wander in and do nothing but wreak havoc, but I can't remember anyone who has legitimately tried to make a contribution to the discussion here ever badmouthing Matrix.

My initial posting here was a copy of a response to someone on another forum who stated exactly most, if not all those things. When I get in forum mode, I visit a lot of forums. And I almost always find stuff like that from someone or another...even on obscure places you'd never expect to even here about Matrix. It is at those places the info can be most damaging. Even here some just drop in and read a bit, not necessarily a whole thread or forum. So even your comment(s) about WITP may well never be investigated beyond reading "WITP is BROKEN".

All in all, I think the ongoing discussion here has been intelligent, positive, and useful to both the company and its customers. I think you have mischaracterized the statements and intent of the many posters - who are also paying customers - not satisfied with simply saying, "We are better off because Matrix exists, so let's ignore their mistakes and product shortcomings."

I think its important to point out, again, that not even the original post was specifically directed at any one person on these forums. It was, in fact, posted elsewhere. I posted it because I belive in my ultimate point and message and felt it would be a more interesting and constructive topic if also posted here.

For what it's worth, I agree with you that Matrix is a good thing - perhaps even the best thing. I enjoy a number of the products they have marketed and hope for better design process and end results in the future. My criticism has been specifically directed toward what I think are severe shortcomings in Matrix's production and quality control policies. I believe that the delays we are seeing in release of games like EiA and GoA reflect an increased concern by Matrix management in these areas - if so, good for them. I would like nothing better than to see Matrix lead the way to a future where computer games are not released half-baked and without principled oversight of the designers, some of whom (not necessarily those who have created games for marketing by Matrix, mind you) just want to "get it over with," "get the danged thing out there so I can make some money," and "move along to the next chop job."

I can agree with that. The important part, to me, though is that it would seem to me that Matrix's heart is still, and always has been, in the right place. If that sounds naive then so be it. Why is it that a company can't be trying to make money AND have its heart in the right place at the same time? They are not mutually exclusive facts to me. But I guess I can understand why some others might see it that way. Few offer help with my games because they can't get past the fact that I intend to charge for them. To me, I just want to make the best wargames possible. And to do that I have to spend, or have spent on my behalf, a lot of money on things like graphics and sound. I wish I was wealthy enough to simply donate that to the wargamming public but alas I'd actually like to break even if not make enough to help finance future similar efforts. From my standpoint, I'm already "donating" my time. Something I view as having my heart in the right place. But I don't even argue this point anymore. I always loose. I'll always be the evil one so long as I intend to <gasp> make money.

That is not to say I will roll over and play dead when products do not meet my expectations as a consumer.

To me expectations are partially a measure of comparisons. Since there is little out there worthy of comparison to WITP, I don't see how a persons expectations could be all that high in the first place. I would say the same about wargames in general. I haven't been that impressed by many, thus my expectations might be lower than some. Perhaps this is why I am more easily pleased when a good game does come along. And am willing to overlook a few minor issues that most games have in some way shape or form anyway.

[Charles2222]

To Veldor and pasternakski:

We may not see very much, if at all, the Matrix is an evil empire post yet, but believe me, it will come, and in droves too, if Matrix meets with a lot of success. There are just kooks out there that think somehow something getting larger necessarily makes it evil. Something getting more evil takes individual and corporate decisions to make it more or less so, not that there's some cosmic size thing that makes it invulnerablely bad. If that were the case you would never have small-time corrupt companies or shoplifters. I would also reason that for those companies that did get bad, or started bad, probably had a lot to do with those employers/employees getting a lot of practice being that way when they were small time operators.

[bordric]

Well, rather than dispute your name calling, all I can say is... If my opinions and statements are so mis-guided then why is it that all you can find to do is label me "arrogant and naive" rather than debate my actual statements?

You labeled yourself no need to play "poor me" now.

But, if i have to keep it simple, I suppose all I'm trying to ask is that If Matrix Folks are the bad guys from the Evil Wargame Publishing Company, then who exactly are the good guys?

Who around here ever said they were evil? I have not even complained very much about them. But there will be people who are not happy, but that doesn’t mean they think Matrix is evil. Matrix is a good company I enjoy some of the games some I will not buy.

It is the way you write though. You write as if your word is the final word on issues and preach to everyone. Is rather annoying actually.

And if they aren't in fact the bad guys, then why post things elsewhere (or even here) that would lead some potential fans or buyers to think that they are? What purpose would that server?

Good guys bad guys? I think that is a bit more emotional feeling then actual reality. If people dislike Matrix they are going to say so and not much can be done about it not much should be done about it.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: bordric

It is the way you write though. You write as if your word is the final word on issues and preach to everyone. Is rather annoying actually.

Next time I'll throw in a few d00ds so you feel more on the level?

Seriously, first you call me names then you attack my writing style? Have you nothing more intelligent to combat my views and opinions?

Where this was posted originally the person ended up being banned. Not so much for being a Matrix-Hater as for name calling.

Try using a few more complex sentences next time, or any for that matter. Improve your vocabulary. Make sure your statements support each other and that the flow to your posting is logical. Beyond that try a positive theme to your posting in the first place....

[watchtower]

ahh I can feel a vinnie & doogie mod moment comming on[8D]

[ravinhood]

Matrixgames is EVIL! hehe roflmao.

[pasternakski]

C'mon, people, now. Smile on your brother. Everybody get together, try to love one another right now.

[watchtower]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

C'mon, people, now. Smile on your brother. Everybody get together, try to love one another right now.

Now that makes me wanna go and find my primal scream 'Screamadelica' LP[8D]

[bradfordkay]

"If you will take the time to notice, there is nothing in there about "spleen venting," whatever that is."

Now, Past... we're not back to discussing the definition of "is" are we? [;)]

[markhwalker]

I think distrusting us as a company because of an art style choice is going a bit far. Printing up alternate maps is not a simple, overnight thing that we can easily do for any customers that want them, unfortunately.

Two things, one of which I have repeatedly said. Thing one: Thanks, Eric for standing up for the maps, but to be clear to the folks reading this. The hex outlines are my decision, created by the LnL dev team artists (but implemented beautifully by Bill and Marc), and something that will always be a part of LnL. That said, I have heard a comprimise offline that I may implement in the next edition.

Thing two (the repeatedly said thingie): I've NEVER received a complaint on the maps from ANYONE who has played the game for any amount of time. Quite to the contrary, players love the outlines, and feel other wargame maps are drab by comparison. The only complaints seem to come from first impressions. PLay three scenarios and then tell me how you feel. Bottom line, 1.5% seem to initially have probrems with the outlines. Hardy an Earth shattering number or a number that warrants special print runs.

A lot of flipping and adding and taking away of counters can go on an on an on. After the first battle and all those units were shaken, then on the following turn everyone rallies, lol, I can see some of these scenarios taking quite some time just to eliminate one unit. At least ground vs ground. The melee part though knocked out a couple. I guess hand to hand is where it's at if you want to eliminate pieces quickly.

Raven, well, as Adam said, you have it all wrong. I appreciate your opinion, but until you play the game you really can't get the feel. Units rallied in the flash demo because we wanted them to. In real games, some rally some don't, some die at the tip of a bayonet, some are reduced to hal-=squads, fall back, are rallied by leaders and live to do great things, others take casualties, rally, take casualties again, and die. It's a lot like war... but fun.

very good I hope that's in the computer version as well.

Yes, it is.

A reply to scanning the messages of this thread --and I'm not being a home boy here... both Eric and David will tell you how bull headed I am-- we should all be grateful Matrix exists. It is our best hope for quality war games. Sure there are other companies --Shrapnel, HPS, Battlefront, Schwerpunkt, etc-- and they are great for what they do. But none of them have the size to bring us the type of games Matrix does.

Best,

Mark

[ravinhood]

It's RavIn Merk not RavEn, thank you very much.

And thanks for clearing that up about the flash demo, it just looked like it would take some time to finish a game the way those dudes were rallying.

I'm still gonna buy your computer version, so, no matters. I think it LOOKS great as a board game and can't wait to get my hands on the computer version.

One thing about the white lines, I notice in one screenshot that I wouldn't have known a wall was there if I hadn't seen the alternative screenshot without the white lines, I hope this will not be the case in the computer version, but, even so in a computer version I'm sure you can put an option/feature to remove hexlines anyways right?

[Reiryc]

ORIGINAL: wobbly

Reiryc: we'll agree to disagree about the right to be unhappy with the product on offer, or more, to make that opinion public.

I'm not sure where this is coming from either...

I never said he doesn't have a right to make his opinion public.

However, this is not a public board. This is a privately owned board. As such, we are allowed to post here by matrix and they have the right to censor or make conditions as these please on their boards (within the confines of the law of course).

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

To Veldor and pasternakski:

We may not see very much, if at all, the Matrix is an evil empire post yet, but believe me, it will come, and in droves too, if Matrix meets with a lot of success. There are just kooks out there that think somehow something getting larger necessarily makes it evil. Something getting more evil takes individual and corporate decisions to make it more or less so, not that there's some cosmic size thing that makes it invulnerablely bad. If that were the case you would never have small-time corrupt companies or shoplifters. I would also reason that for those companies that did get bad, or started bad, probably had a lot to do with those employers/employees getting a lot of practice being that way when they were small time operators.

I have often wondered when I would read a post the meaning of which I could not comprehend no matter how hard I tried. I will, however, be sure to use the expression "some cosmic size thing that makes it invulnerablely bad" every time I get the chance ... it sounds like something a semi-literate woman having kinky sex with Superman might say. Not that I'm a semi-literate woman having kinky sex with Superman, mind you.

[markhwalker]

if I hadn't seen the alternative screenshot without the white lines, I hope this will not be the case in the computer version

Again, Ravin (see, I'm trainable), you make my point. The few (very few compared to number of sales) map complaints we get are not from players. You are looking at a screenshot of the map and claiming the wall is hard to decipher. Sit down, play the game, and then tell me.

On how the game "looks"... the LnL dev team are very proud of the look we came up with with Forgotten Heroes and continued to refine through ANZAC Attack, The Falklands, and now Band of Heroes. It is a key part to the immersion LnL offers, but it is not THE key. Don't buy the computer version because the board game LOOKS good. Buy it because it is the most accessible, most rip-you-out-of-your-everyday-life-and-throw-you-into-the-middle-of-a-firefight tactical game ever made. As John Antal, the author of Proud Legions and special advisor to Ubisoft's Brothers in Arms series says, "If you want to catch a glimpse of the complexity and horror of 20th Century infantry combat, 'Lock 'n Load' is a must-play."

Best,

Mark

[mlees]

Opinion time: Matrix appears to be, to me, one of the better companies, especially in terms of "after market" support. Patches and so forth seem to be coming out for titles that other companies would have long stopped spending recources on.

How much more money is Matrix or whoever going to make on WiTP? Yet there are still folks working on it. (Not just fan based stuff, I mean patches to the base code.) And then there are titles so old, they have wiskers. (Steel Panthers, anyone?)

I am going to have to give a thumbs up to Matrix, and the dedicated fans who make the hobby have legs in a "twitch fest" market.

OT: LnL is going to be coming to the PC? When?

I am interested in this (squad leader) type of game, but the 400 page rulebook takes time to memorize. On a PC, the computer will always gently remind me, and I therefore need to take fewer mulligans.

In regards to the mapboard, I too initially found the white hex border lines distracting. They draw the eye to the hex EDGES, instead of the contents. But after watching the animated demo, I noticed that I was adapting to them quick enough.

[ravinhood]

An oldie but goodie thread. I miss Pat (Pasternaski) hehe Veldor an ole Les the Sarge are fun characters also.

[freeboy]

I may not have the most titles in my some 30 plus MAtrix games, BUT I find most of them good, soom VERY good and a few lemons! My one concern is the ftp server issue that will not allow me to dl ANYTHING from it, even with my firewalls disabled and using a specialized program, so I wait patiently, or not, for the public releases...[:-]

[cdbeck]

I see you have been practicing your Necromancy, RH

SoM

[ravinhood]

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

ORIGINAL: wobbly

Reiryc: we'll agree to disagree about the right to be unhappy with the product on offer, or more, to make that opinion public.

I'm not sure where this is coming from either...

I never said he doesn't have a right to make his opinion public.

However, this is not a public board. This is a privately owned board. As such, we are allowed to post here by matrix and they have the right to censor or make conditions as these please on their boards (within the confines of the law of course).

On that note do you notice that they rarely do if ever? The only things I ever see them squelch is political and religious threads. So, I'm kindalike if Matrixgames doesn't say anything about it then the rest of you "Don't badmouth Matrixgames folks" should do the same. (Veldor hehe)

I'll continue to tell them their prices are too high if I think their prices are too high no matter what anyone else thinks or says to me, really including them. If they don't like it they can ban me of course, but, I don't think they really care that I think their prices are too high as long as the right income is coming in. But, that's the fine line consumers and producers play on. They might deliver some great games, but, if enough people think their prices are too high and don't buy those great games then they're going to have to rethink their prices or go out of business. So, no harm in reminding them their prices are too high.

Consumers in the long term carry the big stick with their $$ not publishers and the developers can move onto another publisher just like they have done for 25+ years now. Nothing stops because publishers go out of business things just move onto something or somewhere's else. Did wargaming die when SSI, MICROPROSE, 3DO (well they made rpg fantasy wargames sorta) just to name a few went out of business? NO! And I've said this before even if Matrixgames did go out of business there will always be another group to pick up the torch for wargaming and publish them(with perhaps cheaper prices haha).

Now Matrixgames compared to Paradox and now Battlefront are excellent producers of real wargames. Only HPS comes 2nd to them. Matrixgames have a huge selection of titles and I'd say probably something for everyone who's into wargames and/or strategy games.

And now with their BLITZ sales (though these are few and far apart) and their Christmas Specials I find their prices pretty reasonable. I'm just sad I can't get any of these games in a bargain bin price tag. hehe Most of you just think I'm a tightwad or worse a pirate, but, to me getting games at a bargain price is as much of a strategy game to me as the games themselves. There's a HIGH there when you can get a great game for $4.00 + sh/h The war strategy is fighting impatience when it comes to getting games at bargain bin prices. Now the war escallates to companies like Matrixgames who keep $50-$60 price tags on games 5 years old or better like SPWAW MEGA Campaigns Pak. But, it's not just them HPS does the same with all their titles and they are all $50 a pop unless you use NPS and I've seen them as low as $29.99 there and you can save the $10 EXTRA charge Matrixgames charges you for a CD and Manual by buying through NPS as well.
That MEGA pak should be $10 by now imho. ~

I see you have been practicing your Necromancy, RH

SoM

Hehe like RAISING THE DEAD? haha This was one of those good threads that just sorta lost its fuel, just wanted to see if there were any new comments since most forumers stick strickly to the first page, there's a lot of good threads back there to breathe some new life into.