ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk
Obviously, Nimitz would have made a poor WitP player.
I disagree! If Nimitz would have had the luxury to completely disregard politics, homefront morale, personal job security, and propaganda, I seriously doubt he'd make the same decisions.
For example, lets assume, for the moment, that some Allied WITP player was able to put 16 B-25s on Hornet and then send 2 CVs to within two hexes of Tokyo in April/42, all just to plant a mosquito bite on Tojo's leg. Since Halsey's TF would be auto-detected at f'n 26 hexes away by some Nakajima 6 engined flying boat made out of paper and popsicle sticks, one can only imagine how fast the destruction would be dealt!
[:D]
"In life, as in a football game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard!"-Theodore Roosevelt
I agree with them on this. I am in my 6 or 7 pbem as the allied and have found out its better to hang back than loose all you stuff. Counter punch when you can. You may win a carrier battle but your taking a big chance against a season jap player. Ive had my head handed to me more than once when i thought every i was dotted and t crossed.[:D]
ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
Well truth be told, against a decent Jap player the allies should refrain from doing anything but counter-punching until Aug or Sept 42. By counter-punching I mean sitting back with massive land based air and letting him come to you. All you can really do initially is sit back and wait for him to make a mistake.
Hit with PTs (he gets 1 point apiece for them, but if one of your torps hits a CL, DD, or AP/AK its worth 6 to 11 points so its a good return on your investment. Your stuff is replaceable, his isnt. Nickel and dime him to death. Every pilot he loses is a victory for you. Every ship that sinks is irreplaceable.
That being said, you really need to protect your carriers. Dont operate more than 2 in a single TF and 1 is better, but keep them all together. Land based LRCAP over them is a necessity and never ever EVER go out with CV airgroups with less than 80 experience.
"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".
"Don't even think to engage your carriers until your upgrades are done, air wings expanded and devastators sent to the airplane hell they deserve.
Obviously, Nimitz would have made a poor WitP player."
You know, in my latest game I was getting bored running my US CVs around behind the lines and decided to make a raid (mid-Jan '42) on Maleolap with the Enterprise and Lexington. Almost 30 Nells were accompanied by a similar number of A6M2s in an attack from that island on my carriers. Luckily, no hits were obtained (but my attack with the full offensive airgroups of those two carriers only scored 2 airbase and 15 runway hits). I don't think that I'll try that again...
"For example, lets assume, for the moment, that some Allied WITP player was able to put 16 B-25s on Hornet and then send 2 CVs to within two hexes of Tokyo in April/42,"
IIRC, the B25s were launched from about 400 miles out, so that would place them 7 hexes away. They were supposed to launch from 4 hexes (about 250 miles).
IIRC, the B25s were launched from about 400 miles out, so that would place them 7 hexes away. They were supposed to launch from 4 hexes (about 250 miles).
And historically, just as in the game, the Jap "player" didnt have search planes out and all his airgroups were on "training" [:D]
I'm really discouraged because the game just isn't interesting. My actions do not matter. When do the Allies have something relevant to do?
You are facing the historical situation - the Japanese prepared for a major offensive in the Pacific and the US and Allies didn't. The start of the campaign game reflects this situation. You need to treat the first year of the game-war as your opportunity to "catch up" on planning with the Japanese.
The "enjoyment" for the Allied player in the first game-year comes from setting up effective traps and watching them spring closed on the enemy. If you want to launch successful offensives in 1943 you need to plan for them all 1942.
If that approach doesn't suit your game-player's temperment, try one of the later starts such as the May 42 or August 42 starts and you will be in a much better position to launch attacks.
I'm really discouraged because the game just isn't interesting. My actions do not matter. When do the Allies have something relevant to do?
You are facing the historical situation - the Japanese prepared for a major offensive in the Pacific and the US and Allies didn't. The start of the campaign game reflects this situation. You need to treat the first year of the game-war as your opportunity to "catch up" on planning with the Japanese.
The "enjoyment" for the Allied player in the first game-year comes from setting up effective traps and watching them spring closed on the enemy. If you want to launch successful offensives in 1943 you need to plan for them all 1942.
If that approach doesn't suit your game-player's temperment, try one of the later starts such as the May 42 or August 42 starts and you will be in a much better position to launch attacks.
Good luck -
Dave Baranyi
Or by getting lucky when an inattentive jap player steps on his member.......[X(]
IIRC, the B25s were launched from about 400 miles out, so that would place them 7 hexes away. They were supposed to launch from 4 hexes (about 250 miles).
I just KNEW someone around here would say something about that!
I believe my stream of conciousness went something like "I wonder how many hexes it would be... ah nevermind, I'll just call it "two" and wait for some person to come along who won't be able to stand not correcting me."
[:D]
"In life, as in a football game, the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard!"-Theodore Roosevelt
The challenge playing the Allies is that the Japanese player sets the tempo of the game, and dictates where and how it is fought.
As the Allies, you need to determine what "style" of play he is using and what his objectives are. These are key to developing your courses of action.
The Japanese have a set amount of naval and air assets, and cannot attack everywhere in strength. if the Japanese try to attack everywhere without naval/air support, there are tremendous opportunities as the Allies to hurt the Japanese. But the Allies are generally limited to hit and run unless the Japanese player really screws up. (i.e. Japanese go after Tarawa rather than Makin in the first few turns, create a small surface group with the 2 CAs escorting convoys in the area and "greet" them). As the Allies, I have had small surface groups with Australian CAs/DDs float around the NG area if the Japanese try pushing into the area without naval support.
Know the Japanese OOB and track where he is and where he isn't. That can provide opportunity. (i.e. Japanese player has all Betty and Nell squadrons in DEI/Singapore/Phillipine areas along with KB, possible opportunity to raid Truk for example)
If the Allies can inflict damage and retain a capability to do so again, it can work to slow down tha Japanese player.
A Japanese player who does not run "willy-nilly" over the map and supports his offensives by with LBA/Naval support can be difficult to hurt and opportunities will be few and far between. This requires a bit more patience and more time paying attention to preparing to deal with his "follow on" objectives, as his offensives are well supported. And the hit and run aspect is really important against a player who properly supports his actions, as he will be one step way with something that can hurt you.
In any case, over committing early will SPEED the pace of the Japanese juggernaut, as he now has little to threaten him and he can take more risk. As the Allies, you must buy time or you are screwed.
In all cases, the Allies need to expend efforts to gain intel on Japanese moves. Use subs to screen key approaches and putting out forward Naval Search assets is key.
"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC
I agree with almost everything here. I have exclusively played the Japanese in 2 PBEM campaigns. With Moses, I am nearly in Sept 42, and with Wolfpack, we are approaching March 42, in these two games I have seen two VERY different fighting styles.
Moses plays more historically based. He has fought for EVERYTHING and bled me over-and-over. We are at September and I am limping into the month. Still have most of my KB but they are TIRED! My LBA, both Naval and Army, is sorely damaged. He has accomplished this by counter-attacking wherever he could and caught me with my pants down a few times. Politically--He did what the Americans HAD to do--FIGHT!
Wolfpack has chosen an a-historical approach in that he has withdrawn nearly EVERYTHING without giving battle. While he didn't withdraw much out of the Phil, Java, or Singapore, he has ALLOWED me to take Luganville, Efate, Noumea, PM, NW Australia, most of Burma, Canton, Pago-Pago, and I am about to capture Suva. My troops, planes and KB have hardly been hurt. Am I over-extended??? DAMNED RIGHT! Will I have MONTHS to organize and the dig-in--YOU BETCH YA! Is this realistic--NO! The ABDA Forces could never have done this politically.
Which is better strategy, only time with tell. My approach to each PBEM is very different. We'll see...
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
I assume that japan is playing a historical first turn. Against a japanese player who exploits the first turn move there is nothing you can do and I agree with the initial poster. I will not participate in such a game but if forced to I suppose I would retreat everything somewhere around the south coast of Austrailia and wait for late 43.
With a historical Japanese first turn:
Your job its to delay the Japanese while preparing the defence of your must hold positions. Hawaii, Numea, Austrailia, India. All four of these locations can be conquered if Japan gets there too early with too much and/or if you have not prepared.
Numea and Hawaii are subject to snap invasions in the first month so you must have some defense in place immediately. In practice this means that the allied carriers retain the option of going to Numea to stop any invasion at least until KB gets there. Carriers can also get back to Hawaii if needed. Still if KB goes to Numea you cannot hold it (but at least force KB to sail all the way there and stay there a month or two. The early invasion of Hawaii is also very dangerous but at least it will tie up Japan for a long time.
Snap invasions of India and Austrailia are possible but very very dangerous for Japan. So prepare the defence but normally you have a little more time to get set up. Defence of these areas is much helped by delays in taking Malaysia and the DEI.
My delaying action is based on the idea of forcing Japan to support his attacks. You do this by being prepared to hit unsupported invasion forces. I don't let Japan have anything until he either establishes air superiority or brings large surface forces. This makes him keep his major fleet units at sea and wears them out.
On the other hand once you see that he has brought the forces to win you bail out of the area and stay away. Specifically you never get close to KB and you do not venture into zero range of a size 4 or above base unless you have a very very good reason.
I assume that japan is playing a historical first turn. Against a japanese player who exploits the first turn move there is nothing you can do and I agree with the initial poster. I will not participate in such a game but if forced to I suppose I would retreat everything somewhere around the south coast of Austrailia and wait for late 43.
Personally, as the Japs, I prefer to play scen 16.
Scenario 16 is excellent as there can be no exploitation. For those who like to fine tune their initial offensive severe restrictions must be put in place. Otherwise its just ridiculous to try and defend.
Moses plays more historically based. He has fought for EVERYTHING and bled me over-and-over.
This is what I don't get. How? I lost two carriers to 8 Kates!
I'd still be hurting badly if the four carrier KB hadn't destroyed Australia. I understand loses to the KB, especially since some (the 2nd Marine division sunk 1 hex from Noumea) was lucky. Its the idea that there are opportunities away from them that I cannot see.
PS Yes we did historical first turn, yes my units are accepting replacements.
Well, speaking for myself. I fight for the PI, DEI, and Malaya. Partially to inflict all the damage I can, and partly to evac troops to fight again another day.
As for "how?" its fairly easy. Air units. Subs. Non-critical naval units. Key is to only fight battles where you can do some damage. Keep your carriers tucked away. You cant fight with them yet.
The problem confronts the Allied player is that you have to adapt to your enemy. Your choices and opportunities are for the most part a function of what the Japanese player does and doesn't do.
While there are some quality tactics and techniques that apply in most situations as the Allies(single CV TFs, evacuating fragments, etc), true stategic decisions are things that you have to make in the context of the game.
It does make the Allies more fun, and accordingly, more difficult, than the Japanese in the early game.
"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC
Also if you lost 2 carriers to 8 Kates then I have to say you just got some bad dice rolls. Such a thing is possible but certainly not normal. Its the equivilant of getting two carriers nailed by subs early in the war. Sometimes despite the best play the Gods of war just aren't with you.
IMO the best early Allied tactics are as follows:
1. Lure KB into the Aleutians with a counter-offensive there commencing on 8th December 41. I did this and lost 1 US CV for multiple bomb strikes on 4 Japanese CVs which sent them back to Japan and into repair yards... I knew I wouldn't sink them but losing a CV for a 3 or 4 month period of freedom from KB commencing at the end of December 41 is definitely worth it.
1b. Being pushing towards Japan along the northern route.
2. Fight as hard as you can over Borneo and the DEI... Begin transferring USMC, US Army and USN plane types to Oz and DEI from December 7th.... In my PBEM by the time the Japanese were able to really attrit my British and Dutch airpower in DEI I had managed to repulse their first invasion fleet, sink 4 Japanese BBs and cripple another 4 or 5 CAs. In addition my USN, USMC and US Army bomber, fighter and torpedo/dive bomber groups were rested and were able to take over from the Dutch and British so that these air forces could rest and recuperate.
I think I lost about 150 ships in return for a bit over 100 Japanese ships with something like 1400 Allied planes lost in return for just over 1000 Japanese planes all by the end of December.
It is as costly as hell but the farther forward you fight ( assuming you fight smart) the more mayhem you can wreak on the enemy and the more you are going to slow down their advance. I think it is unlikely you will be able to hold DEI forever but even holding onto it for another 2 or 3 months will have the effect of removing the Japanese threat to India and northern Oz.
Lastly it is true that anyone can win if they wait for a sufficient preponderance of men and material to become available. What you can do when you have too little quality and quantity is what is going to set the better players apart. Since we shouldn't be playing to win but, instead, playing to exercise skill this whole Sir Robin thing should be antithetical to anyone who wants to improve their game IMO.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
1. SRA/Burma and DEI - there you need to fight and fight hard but probably not commit outside forces until the Japanese plan is known and dont bleed the RAF white you will need those pilots.
I have tried several variants Fortress Singapore/ Fortress Java/ Fortress Timor are all common variants.
I tried the Fortress Singapore against Pauk but misread his intentions and he waltzed through it.
With the forces in place you need to take risks but they need to be balanced ones not only does the risk have to be acceptable but so does the return do not go into betty range unless you have to or the retunr is worth it. I prefer to use Aus/US/Dutch and RN D Class CL's for raiding Dutch and RN D Class have limited utility and upgrades but have good night xp and the Aus and US ones respawn) - save your RN DD's you will need them if the IJN lands in India
Basically force the Japanese to commit to accelerate their timetable most Jap players will view securing DEI a month early as par and on time as a failure be aware of this and use your heavy units as a fleet in being to slow them down
I tend to pick a plan from turn two after I have an initial read on Japanese intentions and then fight a withdrawal.
2. Post SRA until Corsairs
OK my perspective is pick a line in the sand and be prepared to fight for it but dont go looking for trouble if the Japanese dont cross it. use this time to position men and supply for 43 if the Japanese commit to one end of the map its ok to counter attack but do not seek that all or nothing battle.....you dont need it be opportunistic again its calcualted risk reacting to the Japanese.
e.g. PZB invading India Wobbly retakes Lunga, Pauk takes North Australia I take Gilberts
Pick your battles and stockpile for 43. Ignore history UBERCAP and Wildcat v Zero is a bad win ratio for the allies in game if the Japanese don't force you to fight for something vital then it is OK to sit back get your upgrades done and Wait for opportunites and build preparation points.
Because of the carrier respawn rules the absolute worst thing an allied player can do is between 10/42 and 3/43 take risk with his carriers yes they will respawn but the delay in 18 months NOT the historical availablity date so all those mid 43 Essex's appear in mid 44 if you lose you carriers late 42 - this is a HUGE disincentive to allies being overbold you can easily prevent the mid to late 43 offensives by taking risks just because your land bases have corsairs.
IMO its not worth it UNLESS the Japs threaten something I have to defend. e.g. in my game with Pauk my line in the sand was Johnstone Island, Line Islands, Tarawa, Canton, Suva, Auckland, Adeilade (e.g in this game New Cal wasnt on my list of must defend) I determined that after he took North Australia and was prepared to commit if he attacked but he didnt so I was able to sit back and build up its know where you want to go in you 43 and 44 offensives in 42 and plan accordingly
