COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Prepare yourself for a wargaming tour-de-force! Conquest of the Aegean is the next generation of the award-winning and revolutionary Airborne Assault series and it takes brigade to corps-level warfare to a whole new level. Realism and accuracy are the watchwords as this pausable continuous time design allows you to command at any echelon, with smart AI subordinates and an incredibly challenging AI.

Moderator: Arjuna

Post Reply
User avatar
Deathtreader
Posts: 1058
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 3:49 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada.

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by Deathtreader »

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

[font="Courier New"]
Start:1 12:00 End: 3 12:00
Last: 2 14:46 Now: 2 18:39
[/font]


Here we see our motorized infantry on the move to the South of Evangelismos. You will notice that they are no longer traveling in road column formation on the road. They have shaken out into a different formation for better security, since the AI commander is responding to nearby enemy activity. When the threat dissappears and the AI commander feels that they are secure, he will switch back to road column formation on the highway traveling via bounding overwatch.

At Panther Games, AI means what the words actually say.

Also, note due to the new COTA handling of offroad movement, their progress has slowed to a crawl.

Hi,

Just curious as to how one could tell by looking at the highlighted units on the map that they were no longer in road formation. To someone who hasn't played HTTR et al there doesn't seem to be any obvious indication.

Rob.
So we're at war with the Russkies eh?? I suppose we really ought to invade or something. (Lonnnng pause while studying the map)
Hmmmm... big place ain't it??
- Sir Harry Flashman (1854)
MarkShot
Posts: 7496
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 6:04 am

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by MarkShot »

Rob,

The things to notice:

(1) The shape of the foot prints. Road column will show up when highlight as a long narrow foot print.

(2) Look at the movement paths implicitly generated by the AI for his subordinates. If his plan was for road column, then the paths would overlap the road. This shows them spreading out.

(3) If I had let that run for a few minutes before taking the screen shot, you would then see the units physically move off the road. For the looks of the screenshot, it looks like they were just changing their formation as I captured the save game.

(4) You cannot see this. But the roles displayed in the left side bar for a selected unit will switch to "left guard" and "right guard". In road column, you are just going to see roles like "advanced guard", "line filler", and "rear guard".

---

Sorry, I am not at my laptop at the moment where I have all the COTA stuff installed. So, I cannot illustrate this with any screenshots here. (The originally one you asked about is reproduced below.)

I hope that helped clear things up.

Image
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
User avatar
loyalcitizen
Posts: 241
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:15 am

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by loyalcitizen »

I'm still seeing a lot of squiggly movement lines, and near loop-de-loops.
This has been in the past 2 games. I'm surprised it's still in.
Why is this unit moving 1000m to redeploy 100m away?



Image
Attachments
COTA.jpg
COTA.jpg (6.01 KiB) Viewed 310 times
elmo3
Posts: 5797
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2002 10:00 am

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by elmo3 »

Looks like they are going on a short patrol to me.
We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw

WitE alpha/beta tester
Sanctus Reach beta tester
Desert War 1940-42 beta tester
User avatar
Arjuna
Posts: 17768
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 11:18 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Contact:

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by Arjuna »

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
I just think there is a problem that needs to be addressed here.

I took a look at this scenario again today and stepped through the firing code again. To keep a long story short I agree with you that the direct fire casualties from long range are too high. So I have reviewed the rates and modified weapon accuracies for direct fire across the board based on range - ie a bigger reduction the greater the distance. Essentially there is no mod at all if under 500 but up to 50% reduction when greater than 2000m.

I also interogated the suppression code. It seems to be working OK now for bombardments but I noticed that it was nigh impossible to suppress anyone with direct fire. I have since changed this and run though the Tempe Gorge scenario. Seemed pretty good to me. I also put a mod in the Retreat code, which gets called before the suppression check, so that it now calls the suppression check and if it fails retreats in place rather than runs.

I'll be puting out a new build tomorrow and have asked our beta testers to pay close attention to this aspect. Here is a snap from the game I played showing B Coy 2/2nd Inf Bn nearly 80% suppressed and retreating in place - the suppression was due to direct fire from the German Mntn troops assaulting from the West:


Image

Once again thanks Jim for the feedback. Maybe we should have you on our beta test team.[:)]
Attachments
Suppression.jpg
Suppression.jpg (121.48 KiB) Viewed 310 times
Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com
MarkShot
Posts: 7496
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 6:04 am

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by MarkShot »

Rats!

This has been going on for a couple of years now! Everytime I win one of these scenarios, Dave and the beta team figure something must be broken and start looking for things to fix.

I get no respect.

:(
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
User avatar
ChristianKnudsen
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:24 pm

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by ChristianKnudsen »

Wow, this is unreal, on so many levels...

First off, thanks for the great AAR MarkShot - this is how an AAR should be! I've been checking the forum frequently for updates, and you have definitely moved up my "when must I convince my wife that we have enough money to afford to buy this game" date.

Second, the level of response shown by Panther Games is unbelievable, and this applies across the board. Not even the fine folks at Battlefront are as involved in their forums, which is saying a lot. I have never seen a comment (however well thought out and observant) elicit a response indicating a possibility for change from a developer with a major release so close. Especially when that comment is off of a (late?) beta build AAR. For this comment to then provoke a change to a just-about-to-be-released product is unbelievably awesome. I realise that you are in the playtest stage and looking for these sorts of problems, but the turnaround time (about 15 hours, IIRC) is unreal.

One of the reasons I have been such a great fan of Battlefront Games, aside from the great games, is the willingness of the team to get out onto the forums and get involved in their fan base in a personable and responsive way. Please keep it up here at Panther!

On the other hand, don't be afraid to tell us all to bugger off for a bit; ie, that well deserved vacation you've been talking about... [:)]
Cede Nullis
User avatar
sterckxe
Posts: 1897
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:09 am
Location: Flanders
Contact:

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by sterckxe »

ORIGINAL: elmo3
Great new LOS feature. There appear to be shades of gray in addition to white. Does that imply something less than 100% clear LOS but more than 0% blocked?

Yup
ORIGINAL: elmo3
Edit - Can you click anywhere on the map to use it or must you have a LOS to where you want to click first? Sorry for interrupting your display of the other new feature.

Click anywhere - you're playing the overall commander so it's reasonable to assume he had a map of the area where he was supposed to operate.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
User avatar
Jim D Burns
Posts: 3998
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Salida, CA.

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

I took a look at this scenario again today and stepped through the firing code again. To keep a long story short I agree with you that the direct fire casualties from long range are too high. So I have reviewed the rates and modified weapon accuracies for direct fire across the board based on range - ie a bigger reduction the greater the distance. Essentially there is no mod at all if under 500 but up to 50% reduction when greater than 2000m.

I also interogated the suppression code. It seems to be working OK now for bombardments but I noticed that it was nigh impossible to suppress anyone with direct fire. I have since changed this and run though the Tempe Gorge scenario. Seemed pretty good to me. I also put a mod in the Retreat code, which gets called before the suppression check, so that it now calls the suppression check and if it fails retreats in place rather than runs.

I'll be puting out a new build tomorrow and have asked our beta testers to pay close attention to this aspect. Here is a snap from the game I played showing B Coy 2/2nd Inf Bn nearly 80% suppressed and retreating in place - the suppression was due to direct fire from the German Mntn troops assaulting from the West:

Once again thanks Jim for the feedback. Maybe we should have you on our beta test team.[:)]

Great to see such a quick response, I was afraid it was too close to release to see any more changes. I’m also glad I was right, I would have hated to waist your time had my impressions of what had happened in the AAR been wrong.

Basically what I think the adjustment should strive for is to have support weapons (direct fire and artillery) suppress the enemies return fire enough to allow your assault units to close and carry the day. They should also cause casualties of course, just not enough to force consistent retreats unless the firepower being directed at the unit by said support is extremely heavy and sustained fire.

If it’s possible to differentiate range penalties by weapon types, I’d give rifles 100% at 200 meters and reduce their effectiveness out to 500 meters (say 30% at 500). It was a rare case to have an accurate rifleman at 500 meters range, but most men could hit what they were aiming at at 200 meters or less.

Thanks for the beta team offer, but alas my available time is sporadic at best, so I’m afraid I’d be a disappointment as a beta tester (not reliable enough for consistent input). I will spend time with the game once released and will gladly continue to post my impressions here though.

Jim

P. S. Thanks for your tireless efforts, this is truly a ground breaking system for wargaming and will probably prove to be a classic for years to come.
User avatar
sterckxe
Posts: 1897
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:09 am
Location: Flanders
Contact:

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by sterckxe »

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
Certainly this is not somethinh that out beta testers have commented on in the many hundreds if not thousands of hour of testing. But then again we're only human. Thanks once again for your feedback.

Might I add : as a beta-tester you can't help getting a bit fixated on your own particular hang-ups, be it artillery, path determination, movement speeds, AI performance and a thousand other things that together make this a highly realistic experience.

This fixation is quite human, that's why a fresh pair of eyes can sometimes point out the obvious point that was overlooked - call it the "fog of beta-war" [:)]

Then again, I've seen units rout without a single casualty and others getting decimated while holding their ground. There's a dozen parameters + a random factor at play here so jumping in and "fixing" this straight away might not be the best course of action as Arjuna has already said.

I can assure you that the beta-testers [>:] have all been fish-whipped properly and will monitor this closely

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
User avatar
sterckxe
Posts: 1897
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:09 am
Location: Flanders
Contact:

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by sterckxe »

ORIGINAL: MarkShot
This has been going on for a couple of years now! Everytime I win one of these scenarios, Dave and the beta team figure something must be broken and start looking for things to fix.

[:D] - it's item #3 on the Official Beta Watch List

#2 : When Ray & Eddy agree on something, they're *both* wrong.

and #1 : When Dave says something is fixed .... [:'(]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
User avatar
Bil H
Posts: 1705
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:03 am
Location: Fredericksburg Virginia
Contact:

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by Bil H »

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

Click anywhere - you're playing the overall commander so it's reasonable to assume he had a map of the area where he was supposed to operate.

Hey Eddy, they had maps in WW2 that could show you LOS from any location you wished regardless of whether you own that point or not? [&:]

Hmmm.. seems I need to make another "Feature Request" ... [;)]

Bil
Ah, well, since you do not wish death, then how about a rubber chicken?

Sam the Eagle

My Combat Mission Blog:
https://battledrill.blogspot.com/
User avatar
sterckxe
Posts: 1897
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:09 am
Location: Flanders
Contact:

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by sterckxe »

ORIGINAL: Bil H
ORIGINAL: sterckxe

Click anywhere - you're playing the overall commander so it's reasonable to assume he had a map of the area where he was supposed to operate.

Hey Eddy, they had maps in WW2 that could show you LOS from any location you wished regardless of whether you own that point or not? [&:]

Hmmm.. seems I need to make another "Feature Request" ... [;)]

Bil

WWII topographical maps at the Army level : sure, they had them - not all of them very accurate - but even Napoleon had topographical maps - LOS and fields of fire can be derived from that, whether you "own" the point or not. When you're talking individual btl, rgt and even div commanders, that's something else. The Germans raiding French gaz stations to get Michelin maps of the area and other such assorted stories are well-known.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
User avatar
Bil H
Posts: 1705
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:03 am
Location: Fredericksburg Virginia
Contact:

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by Bil H »

Eddy, once again you totally misunderstood me [:'(]

It is damned hard to get LOS manually from a topo map... try it and see. It is the god like power of knowing the LOS from any point at any time that I object to. We used to send out a Commander's recon to ensure visibility from an area was as we hoped. Unless you are on the ground it is near impossible in reality to know what you can and can't see.

That being said, I don't reeally have an objection to the LOS tool... it is very handy, I would just like to see it restricted to within friendly unit footprints... not a big deal really though, so it can wait 3 or 4 games down the road. [;)]

Bil
Ah, well, since you do not wish death, then how about a rubber chicken?

Sam the Eagle

My Combat Mission Blog:
https://battledrill.blogspot.com/
User avatar
sterckxe
Posts: 1897
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:09 am
Location: Flanders
Contact:

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by sterckxe »

ORIGINAL: Bil H
Eddy, once again you totally misunderstood me [:'(]

Yeah, most of the time I *really* need it spelled out (cfr. our discussion on attack coordination ...) - It's my programming background - in any analysis, everything that can be misunderstood, will be misunderstood.
ORIGINAL: Bil H
It is damned hard to get LOS manually from a topo map... try it and see.

Years of Squad Leader (the boardgame) and IRL hiking experience here - I'm the wrong person to judge if it's easy or not [;)]
ORIGINAL: Bil H
It is the god like power of knowing the LOS from any point at any time that I object to.

Well, it's certainly a fact that an Army/Corps commander never even knew where his *own* units *were* for sure, yet the game allows this as well. Own unit FOW and all that.

It's that old ultra-realism vs. playability/fun discussion again.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
User avatar
Bil H
Posts: 1705
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:03 am
Location: Fredericksburg Virginia
Contact:

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by Bil H »

Years of Squad Leader (the boardgame) and IRL hiking experience here - I'm the wrong person to judge if it's easy or not

SL is not a valid comparison... hiking is, but even then you can't tell how high a treeline is and whether standing on hilltop A you can see into valley B just by looking at the map... etc...
Well, it's certainly a fact that an Army/Corps commander never even knew where his *own* units *were* for sure, yet the game allows this as well. Own unit FOW and all that.

Someday we'll get that Friendly FOW I've been harping about for so long... [;)]

Sorry Mark it seems we have hi-jacked your thread.. I'll shut up now. Great AAR BTW... did you win? Inotice nobody ever writes an AAR where the AI wins... how about from one of your early COTA games Mark? [:'(]

Bil
Ah, well, since you do not wish death, then how about a rubber chicken?

Sam the Eagle

My Combat Mission Blog:
https://battledrill.blogspot.com/
RayWolfe
Posts: 1556
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:40 pm
Location: Kent in the UK

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by RayWolfe »

ORIGINAL: Bil H
I would just like to see it restricted to within friendly unit footprints... not a big deal really though, so it can wait 3 or 4 games down the road. [;)]
Nice idea Bil. What about putting as a toggle selected at game start like the realism choices?
1 LOS Tool from any point.
2 LOS Tool from owned locations.
Dave, get that into COTA when you've got a second or two .. sounds easy. [:'(]
Ray
User avatar
Arjuna
Posts: 17768
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 11:18 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Contact:

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by Arjuna »

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
If it’s possible to differentiate range penalties by weapon types, I’d give rifles 100% at 200 meters and reduce their effectiveness out to 500 meters (say 30% at 500). It was a rare case to have an accurate rifleman at 500 meters range, but most men could hit what they were aiming at at 200 meters or less.

We already attenuate accuracy for individual weapons over range. Most weapons have five range bands. EG a 303 rifle has the following accuracies:

50 - 90%
100 - 81%
200 - 65%
300 - 46%
400 - 28%
500 - 14%

What I did was apply a further global accuracy Mod where the range > 500m. So while this will not affect rifles ( they can't fire at ranges beyond 500m anyway ) it will affect MMG etc.
Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com
MarkShot
Posts: 7496
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 6:04 am

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by MarkShot »

Hi,

Just curious as to how one could tell by looking at the highlighted units on the map that they were no longer in road formation. To someone who hasn't played HTTR et al there doesn't seem to be any obvious indication.

Rob.

Rob,

Now that I am back at my laptop, I'll give provide some screen captures along with my previous answer to your question.

First, you'll unit roles in the side bar like this when they are breaking out into a more secure formation.

Image
Attachments
66play.jpg
66play.jpg (12.2 KiB) Viewed 311 times
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
MarkShot
Posts: 7496
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 6:04 am

RE: COTA (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, and tips!

Post by MarkShot »

Here we see the same group of units that you had asked about approximately 8 hours later.

The AI commander no longer feels there is a threat and they are once again traveling in road column formation. Notice, the very narrow footprints and that all movement paths follow the road.

Image
Attachments
67play.jpg
67play.jpg (81.72 KiB) Viewed 310 times
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
Post Reply

Return to “Conquest of the Aegean”