I am curious, has anyone, at the start of the game as IJA/IJN, commenced an attack on the USSR? I have been toying with the idea for some time with the thought of gain points early to get an automatic victory.
Military resources for the IJA seem rather small in the Manchuria area for such an undertaking and given Japan's overall force commitment at the opening of the game, an three-pronged attack [US, Great Britian, et al., and the USSR] may be too much for Japan to sustain for any period of time.
I would be interested in hearing from anyone that has tried it and the outcome. My suspicion is that you could cause some difficulty for a time in that area of the world, but that sooner-than-later you'd be in trouble with the Russkie. On the other hand, if the IJA could hold key rail junctions - Vladivostock [sp], and points North, would be very difficult to the USSR to retake by the end of the war. Would this also lead to a more difficult time of the Russkie getting into Manchuria?
Anyway, my head hurts - I'll let the strategic gurus educate me here.
Attack on the USSR
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
Attack on the USSR
"Over?! It's not over until we say it's over. Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?!" John Blutarsky from the Movie "Animal House"
RE: Attack on the USSR
Can't say I've ever done it, or had it happen to me.
But what you'd be able to capitalize on, is that fact that the Soviets just sit there until you attack. Most of their forces are concentrated on the coast. You "block" them there, concentrate elsewhere, and sweep thru before they could even start moving (which is exactly why this is poo-poo'd in PBEM).
-F-
But what you'd be able to capitalize on, is that fact that the Soviets just sit there until you attack. Most of their forces are concentrated on the coast. You "block" them there, concentrate elsewhere, and sweep thru before they could even start moving (which is exactly why this is poo-poo'd in PBEM).
-F-
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me
RE: Attack on the USSR
Read AAR threads named "Invasion Russia". I believe I did 3. Invasion I and II were head to head solitare and III was vs. Admiral Laurent.
You have to go back about a year to find these threads.
You have to go back about a year to find these threads.
RE: Attack on the USSR
ORIGINAL: moses
Read AAR threads named "Invasion Russia". I believe I did 3. Invasion I and II were head to head solitare and III was vs. Admiral Laurent.
You have to go back about a year to find these threads.
Moses I was reading some of these earlier. What were your final conclusions?
RE: Attack on the USSR
Japan wins quickly if they bring in 10 outside divisions and 2 squadrens of zero's. The battle should start around the end of dec and should be essentially over before Feb. Some mopping up will still be required after that but the troops can start being redeployed back to China and SRA.
I would not want to reduce the amount of force I recommend. Maybe you can skimp by with one or two less divisions but then you risk lengthening the battle. Trying to attack with only the initial starting force is hopless and will result in a crushing Russian victory. Even with 5 divisions added to the Japanese I still like the Russian. You have to crush the Russians quickly as once they get redeployed they are very strong.
So the question of can the Russians be defeated is settled. What is uncertain is if the overall strategy is good. i.e. Is the rapid defeat of Russia worth the diversion of 10 divisions fo about 3 months. (one month transit to and from Russia and one month for the campaign)
I should note that my purpose in testing this strategy was to demonstrate flaws in the ground combat system that I thought should be addressed. While some limited changes were made basically the flaws remain. Russia can be conquered in an almost bloodless fashion and with a rapidity that was historically unimaginable.
I would not want to reduce the amount of force I recommend. Maybe you can skimp by with one or two less divisions but then you risk lengthening the battle. Trying to attack with only the initial starting force is hopless and will result in a crushing Russian victory. Even with 5 divisions added to the Japanese I still like the Russian. You have to crush the Russians quickly as once they get redeployed they are very strong.
So the question of can the Russians be defeated is settled. What is uncertain is if the overall strategy is good. i.e. Is the rapid defeat of Russia worth the diversion of 10 divisions fo about 3 months. (one month transit to and from Russia and one month for the campaign)
I should note that my purpose in testing this strategy was to demonstrate flaws in the ground combat system that I thought should be addressed. While some limited changes were made basically the flaws remain. Russia can be conquered in an almost bloodless fashion and with a rapidity that was historically unimaginable.
RE: Attack on the USSR
And because of such results Russia should basically just be relegated to the sidelines.
IF the Japanese player has ANY intentions of attacking Russia in a PBEM game, at the MINIMUM he should activate Russia for the Allied player at the beginning of the war. This allows the allied player to redeploy forces and respond to Japanese buildups in the areas.
IF the Japanese player has ANY intentions of attacking Russia in a PBEM game, at the MINIMUM he should activate Russia for the Allied player at the beginning of the war. This allows the allied player to redeploy forces and respond to Japanese buildups in the areas.
x-Nuc twidget
CVN-71
USN 87-93
"Going slow in the fast direction"
CVN-71
USN 87-93
"Going slow in the fast direction"
RE: Attack on the USSR
And what would make an attack in Dec 1941 very dodgy is
A. The war for Japan was a decision between attacking either the US or USSR/they would have not done either.
B. Through their spy Sorge, the Russians had good knowledge that Japan would not attack..
This seems begging for a house rule in PBEM not allowing an attack for 2-3 months...
A. The war for Japan was a decision between attacking either the US or USSR/they would have not done either.
B. Through their spy Sorge, the Russians had good knowledge that Japan would not attack..
This seems begging for a house rule in PBEM not allowing an attack for 2-3 months...
To quote from Evans/Peattie`s {Kaigun}
"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq
"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq
RE: Attack on the USSR
Forgive me but i just can't help myself.
But maybe just fix the problem?? In one of many ways.
1.) Russia automatically activates whenever Japanese AV reaches say 10,000. Or make it 15,000 but in the calculation count any unit from an outside HQ at 5 times its AV. Now Japan will never get close to the threshold unless he brings in a couple southern area divisions. Details have to be worked out with the Chinese units that start in the area but the idea would work.
2.) Eliminate the rail hexes near the border. Sure there may have been rail there but it wouln't have been there after a corp/army sized battle sweeps over the area. The idea of large opposing infantry armies sweeping across a frozen Siberian landscape at 30 or 40 miles per day is just dumb.
3.) Allow Russian units in border forts near the coast a road which allows them to redeploy if Japan attacks. A big problem for Russia is that a good portion of its force is moving at 2 miles per hour trying to get to anyplace useful.
Easy fixes. 2 and 3 reqire nothing more then map changes.
But I realize that players who invade russia are bad. The game was not designed for large land combat. So players who fight there are exploiting the system. When about a third of the map was devoted to large land masses it was never foreseen that players might actually try to attack in these areas.
Who would think that Japan would try attacks!!?? in China? Oh wait they did. Invading Russia is crazy!!?? Oh wait, Japan did consider such attacks but opted to go the other way. Invade India or Austrailia??!! crazy again. Except the allies sure did seem worried about the possibility.
Bad player bad!!!----Sorry need my PBEM turm -- get on it JohnIII.
But maybe just fix the problem?? In one of many ways.
1.) Russia automatically activates whenever Japanese AV reaches say 10,000. Or make it 15,000 but in the calculation count any unit from an outside HQ at 5 times its AV. Now Japan will never get close to the threshold unless he brings in a couple southern area divisions. Details have to be worked out with the Chinese units that start in the area but the idea would work.
2.) Eliminate the rail hexes near the border. Sure there may have been rail there but it wouln't have been there after a corp/army sized battle sweeps over the area. The idea of large opposing infantry armies sweeping across a frozen Siberian landscape at 30 or 40 miles per day is just dumb.
3.) Allow Russian units in border forts near the coast a road which allows them to redeploy if Japan attacks. A big problem for Russia is that a good portion of its force is moving at 2 miles per hour trying to get to anyplace useful.
Easy fixes. 2 and 3 reqire nothing more then map changes.
But I realize that players who invade russia are bad. The game was not designed for large land combat. So players who fight there are exploiting the system. When about a third of the map was devoted to large land masses it was never foreseen that players might actually try to attack in these areas.
Who would think that Japan would try attacks!!?? in China? Oh wait they did. Invading Russia is crazy!!?? Oh wait, Japan did consider such attacks but opted to go the other way. Invade India or Austrailia??!! crazy again. Except the allies sure did seem worried about the possibility.
Bad player bad!!!----Sorry need my PBEM turm -- get on it JohnIII.
RE: Attack on the USSR
Any army in history that attacks Russia is toasted.[;)]
Hitler,Napoleon... all of them lost in this great land and eventually lost their power elsewhere.
Japan cant invade Russia,russian soldiers are better equiped,has better tanks and overall the better army.[;)]
Hitler,Napoleon... all of them lost in this great land and eventually lost their power elsewhere.
Japan cant invade Russia,russian soldiers are better equiped,has better tanks and overall the better army.[;)]
Fortess fortuna iuvat
RE: Attack on the USSR
Poland occupied Kremlin for 2 years ... in 17th century
and I'm proud of it as wargamer - napoleon did not manage[;)]
and I'm proud of it as wargamer - napoleon did not manage[;)]
RE: Attack on the USSR
In 17 th century? ...I tought Poland had full hands with Bogdan Chmelnicky and his cossacks at Ukraina and Sweds of Gustav Adolfus which conquered whole country. Not counting its own nobles fighting each other and king. Certainly 17th century wasnt Poland happiest...
RE: Attack on the USSR
wasn't
but I mean 1st half of 17th century
Poland was weakened by constant war on each border and that's was main reason of problem in second half of 17th century
Poland posesed Kremlin for 2 years and by the end Russian starved sieged troops
but I mean 1st half of 17th century
Poland was weakened by constant war on each border and that's was main reason of problem in second half of 17th century
Poland posesed Kremlin for 2 years and by the end Russian starved sieged troops
RE: Attack on the USSR
which year?
And it wasnt Gustav Adolfus ...it was Carl X Gustav of course. Just a small correction
And it wasnt Gustav Adolfus ...it was Carl X Gustav of course. Just a small correction
RE: Attack on the USSR
I have books out now but will check and post it soon
RE: Attack on the USSR
Poland supported 2 "probably " false czar candidates (Dymitris) in 1604 and 1607 both organized by nobility.
They failed.Later in 1609 Zygmunt III Waza started operations against Moscow. coalition of Russia and Sweden beaten in 1610 at Kłuszyn. Smoleńsk and Moscow taken in 1611. heir of polish crown Wladislaw given title by russion nobility. later next uprising finished by almost 2 year siege of Kremlin. it is said at the end defenders ate human flesh. Unsupported garrison fell in 1613
that's all in short. If there is sb from russia here there should be better data available. go to internet - there should be sth
They failed.Later in 1609 Zygmunt III Waza started operations against Moscow. coalition of Russia and Sweden beaten in 1610 at Kłuszyn. Smoleńsk and Moscow taken in 1611. heir of polish crown Wladislaw given title by russion nobility. later next uprising finished by almost 2 year siege of Kremlin. it is said at the end defenders ate human flesh. Unsupported garrison fell in 1613
that's all in short. If there is sb from russia here there should be better data available. go to internet - there should be sth
RE: Attack on the USSR
One of my favorite drums to beat - "Japan vs. USSR".
The Soviets utterly stomped Japan's ass at Kalkun Gol (sp?) in 1940. After being humiliated, Japan never so much as blinked at Russia the wrong way. It was JAPAN that approached the USSR with a non-Aggression pact, not the other way around.
The Soviet Army in WitP is GROSSLY underrepresented. Both in strenght and quality. And from my few tests in armor vs. armor (I took 100 IJA light tanks and pitted them against 100 T-34s), the ground model is woefully lacking the. The light tanks destroyed something like 15 T-34s, and only 2 or 3 of the light tanks being damaged.
-F-
The Soviets utterly stomped Japan's ass at Kalkun Gol (sp?) in 1940. After being humiliated, Japan never so much as blinked at Russia the wrong way. It was JAPAN that approached the USSR with a non-Aggression pact, not the other way around.
The Soviet Army in WitP is GROSSLY underrepresented. Both in strenght and quality. And from my few tests in armor vs. armor (I took 100 IJA light tanks and pitted them against 100 T-34s), the ground model is woefully lacking the. The light tanks destroyed something like 15 T-34s, and only 2 or 3 of the light tanks being damaged.
-F-
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me
RE: Attack on the USSR
ORIGINAL: Sneer
Poland occupied Kremlin for 2 years ... in 17th century
and I'm proud of it as wargamer - napoleon did not manage[;)]
Actualy he did that also . Napoleon occupied Kremlin but lost war afther that .
RE: Attack on the USSR
The Soviet Army in WitP is GROSSLY underrepresented. Both in strenght and quality. And from my few tests in armor vs. armor (I took 100 IJA light tanks and pitted them against 100 T-34s), the ground model is woefully lacking the. The light tanks destroyed something like 15 T-34s, and only 2 or 3 of the light tanks being damaged.
Any Japanese tank facing T-34 will be obliterated[;)].
Fortess fortuna iuvat
RE: Attack on the USSR
ORIGINAL: Milman
Actualy he did that also . Napoleon occupied Kremlin but lost war afther that .
Yeah well, the Russians were uncouth enough to set fire to their own city...
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
RE: Attack on the USSR
ORIGINAL: Terminus
ORIGINAL: Milman
Actualy he did that also . Napoleon occupied Kremlin but lost war afther that .
Yeah well, the Russians were uncouth enough to set fire to their own city...
Seems to be a theme with someone who loses a city... (i.e. CSA with Richmond, and maybe Columbia SC (claims vary on the last).)