are there known bugs with retreats?

[WanderingHead]

I've seen weird results with retreats a couple of times recently, where units that seemingly could retreat were destroyed instead.

1) Russia attacks Japanese in Mongolia. Japanese could retreat to Manchuria but were destroyed (could it be because it is a double border? no rail?).

2) Germany attacks WA in southern Italy. Transport link out of the Med is gone, but the WA could retreat to Malta. Instead the WA are destroyed.

Are these bugs, or am I missing something in the rules?

Not that it matters, but so far, this has always occurred in my favor. But it is concerning.

[WanderingHead]

Hey, that's supposed to be "known bugs with retreats". Lordy, I wish I could type.

[Bodhi]

As the thread starter, you can edit the title of the thread, should you so wish.

[WanderingHead]

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

As the thread starter, you can edit the title of the thread, should you so wish.

hey, you're right.

Now, what were we talking about?

[Joel Billings]

When you retreat over a transport, you are damaged. If you don't have a transport link to a factory, you will be destroyed. As for the Mongolia item, I'd have to see a save where we could repeat the problem. I'm not sure off hand if there are still any known land retreat bugs left (maybe Jan can think of some as he's been over the list lately).

[WanderingHead]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
When you retreat over a transport, you are damaged. If you don't have a transport link to a factory, you will be destroyed. As for the Mongolia item, I'd have to see a save where we could repeat the problem. I'm not sure off hand if there are still any known land retreat bugs left (maybe Jan can think of some as he's been over the list lately).

Woh. Never knew that rule about retreating over transports, but I found it in the manual. I guess it was good I cut the link back to Britain, but I didn't know what I was doing. Just a fluke.

For the Mongolian retreat bug, I sent a save of the Russian turn with instruction for reproduction to 2by3@2by3games.com. Is that the correct place to send these now?

Thanks.

[JanSorensen]

I believe the bug is indeed with retreats across some but not all 2 MP borders. I remember experiencing the same in Africa and Siberia. I just never got around to testing it properly but I will do that now. Thanks for reminding me.

I will report back once I have done a bit more testing.

[JanSorensen]

A bit of testing later.

It appears that a land unit cannot retreat across a 2 MP border unless that border is railed.

As far as I can tell this is not mentioned in the rules - so its either a bug or an undocumented feature. I personally think either way is fine but its obviously up to Joel to decide.

I have added it to the bug list so he doesnt forget

[Lebatron]

If I'm reading rule 8.5.12 correctly it is basically saying that your defending damaged units may move back one zone, then if that zone has rail to a factory, then your damaged units will make it there. Is this correct? If it is, then I would say WanderingHeads damaged troops in Mongolia should have made it back to Japan via the rail link that started at Manchuria.

If on the other hand you take this rule and apply it to Northern Siberia(163,164) where there is no rail, then I guess any damage you suffer is total because you would have no rail link behind you that leads to a factory. Say the Japs only conquered these northern areas without taking the ones just below that have rail. Then if the japs were sitting at 163 when they got attacked and the only place for damaged units to retreat to is 164(also without rail), then I take it they would be destroyed? Even if a transport was sitting of off 164?

Does this rule also apply to attacking units? Rule 8.5.12 refers to only defending units. The following rule 8.5.13 is not as clear to me. It does not define what a legal path is. Does it have to have rail? Lets say the japs are in the same area as above(163) and attempt to attack west into XXX, and some of the units get damaged, since there is no rail link behind them, are they destroyed?

[JanSorensen]

The units I tested on where not damaged - they just had to retreat. As I said above they could not do so across a non-rail 2 MP border.

I concur that the RaW (rules as written) are not up to the extreme standard required if this had been a board game - not that its uncommon even with actual board games.

[Lebatron]

Ok I see. What is happening is that you are getting a message after combat is over saying your units are destroyed because they can't retreat. Right? So its a bug or a feature of 2MP borders as you were saying. Then 2by3 has to decide what it is. I can see how your OK with either outcome, but I lean toward allowing the retreat across the 2MP border. I do because I play with the optional fuel on. The way I see it, since the forces that crossed that 2MP border already paid twice as much to do so, then they should have the fuel reserves to make it back if they are forced to retreat. I know thats an abstract concept buts its an abstract game. If fuel on is not checked then I can understand the logic that the forces are eliminated. But most of us use fuel on right? This is off the subject a little but I think 2by3 should just make fuel on standard and eliminate the check box. Its just too inherent to the movement mechanics to be left a choice. Kind of like tanks using 2 supply when they move through two territories. Its always costs 2. We don't have a check box to make that optionally cost 1. See what I mean? Anyway back to topic. Since we already pay extra to move since the patched fuel on came out, I feel units should be allowed to retreat across a 2MP border.

Anyway back to my post above regarding damaged units having to trace a path across a 2MP border back to a factory. Does this 2MP border bug/feature affect the path rules differently as I was discussing above? Or does a 2MP border play no part in it and things work exactly like they would with single borders?

[JanSorensen]

Wrt damaged units - thats quite easy to test.
1. 1940 scenario
2. Japan takes Mongolia with 1 INF.
3. Russia retakes Mongolia with 1 ARM + 1 INF (most lkely this will damage but not detroy the Japanese INF).
4. Check Japan's production chart.
The damaged INF will show up.

[Lebatron]

Ok, I kind of assumed that in the case with Mongolia and Manchuria. But I was more curious about them northern areas like 163 without rail. The rules just aren't clear if a damaged unit will make it back to a factory in that case.

But anyway what you have just shown in the example above is an oddity. WanderingHead would have been better off to have his units damaged in the fight rather than forced to retreat. If they were damaged at least he would get something back. The retreat causes him to lose everything. That is a good reason to concider it a bug that needs fixing rather than a feature that was not explained in the manual. This in addition to the fact that he already paid double supply to cross that 2MP border are good arguments to see this changed so that units will retreat across a 2MP border.

[JanSorensen]

Wrt area 163 - please do test if thats any different and report back. As my example shows its very easy to setup such a test.

I also considered the better off damaged than merely retreated oddity after my former post - but then the game is filled with such oddities.

Example: Late Japan cut off from main land resources would often be better off with its ships damaged than on map (and out of supply) as that would enable scrapping them for much needed resources.

Anyway, I guess its up to Joel.

[JanSorensen]

Hmm, after a bit more testing I am back to being confused.

It seems this bug only happens sometimes.

I setup a test. Saved the game. Did the combat and saw the bug in action. Then I reloaded the game I only just saved and redid the combat - only this time the retreated worked so there was no bug.

Its beyond odd infact. If I restart WaW fully and do the combat - the bug occurs. But if I reload the game once more then bug does not occur - nor does it appear to occur on any subsequent reloads. So, it may only happen the first time after restarting WaW.

No, I am not kidding - yes I know it sounds odd.

@Wandering - the very same happens when I load your save game.

I would appreciate it if others could try to see if they can dublicate this as its very odd.

[Lebatron]

What exactly did the setup look like? I have tried Wandering's Mongolia retreat at least 20 times but could not get a jap unit to retreat. I tried both one and two Jap infantry in Mongolia and hit then with different amounts of Russians. But every time I ran the combat the Russians either hit to much or not enough to force a retreat. I could not get it to give me one surviving Jap inf to retreat with. Its no wonder I never noticed this 2MP border thing before because its hard to get it to happen even when your trying.

[WanderingHead]

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen
@Wandering - the very same happens when I load your save game.

I don't know which you mean, you mean you did duplicate it or you did not?

I just ran it from the save for the 2nd time, and the same thing happened as before (3rd time now). I have never not gotten the "inf unable to retreat destroyed" in the 3 times I tried.

The setup is USSR 8 inf 6 mil 2 art 3 AA in Central Siberia, Japan 5 inf 1 art 1 ftr 2 TB 2 HB in Mongolia. Irkutsk is Japanese held but empty, the rail is not repaired. Every Russian goes into Mongolia in my tests, although in the actual game I sent 1 mil to Irkutsk and the rest to Mongolia.

[JanSorensen]

- I start WaW.

- I load Wandering's save game
- I attack Mongolia with all the Russian units (after moving some supply).
- Some of the Japs do retreat but there is a "INF could not retreat and is destroyed" message.

- I then reload Wandering's save game.
- I again attack Mongolia with all the Russian units.
- This time the Japanese all retreat without problems.

I have a much simpler save file that illustrates the problem - I will mail that one to Wanderinghead. Its from v1.070. If others want a copy too please PM me your email. Its too large to attach to a post here, unfortunately.

[WanderingHead]

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen
I have a much simpler save file that illustrates the problem - I will mail that one to Wanderinghead. Its from v1.070. If others want a copy too please PM me your email. Its too large to attach to a post here, unfortunately.

Yeah, same thing. And I also observed it with my own file. The _first_ time you load it and do this after starting the game you get the "unable to retreat", subsequent times you load it it does not occur.

Interestingly, I accidentally found another wrinkle. After starting the game, the first time I loaded Jan's file I misinterpreted the situation and threw every available Russian into the mix. This killed every Jap, so there was no retreat. Then I reloaded, started the combat with just the 4 Rus Mil Jan set up, and got "unable to retreat". Then I reloaded again and the Jap inf was able to retreat.

In other words, it doesn't seem like it is just the first time you load the file after startup, rather it is actually the first time you cause the retreat after startup, regardless of how many times you load the file.

At any rate, the variability proves it is a bug one way or the other, and it is really in the court of the programmers.

[JanSorensen]

Thanks for the confirmation Wanderinghead.