CHS Mod Proposal

Please post here for questions and discussion about scenario design and the game editor for WITP.

Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami

el cid again
Posts: 16984
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: CHS Mod Proposal

Post by el cid again »

I've already said that I don't have an opinion on Nik's AAA thing unless someone can make a good arguement for or against. Mostly because I haven't researched it. I DO think AAA is a little underpowered though. Most combat losses (not ops)in the Second world war were from AAA. That isn't the case in my game.

One reason is that most of the AAA is NOT firing at all - I think! You only THINK your 5 inch 38s (5 inch 25s, etc) are shooting. But looking at the database - I think they ONLY shoot at SURFACE targets. IF we can fix that, we should see AAA go up in effectiveness.

But it should only do so at LOWER altitudes. Game overrates the altitude of the specialist AA guns (vice the dual purpose guns which it underrates). Apparently.
User avatar
jwilkerson
Posts: 8253
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
Location: Kansas
Contact:

RE: CHS Mod Proposal

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

From what I understand and have observed the flight time of a shell decreases faster the more verticle it goes. Just examine the max altitude a gun can fire as opposed to the max horizontal range. There are significant differences. I did not say that the ability to hit anything changed, just that for the 40mm example there was a max range you could expect to hit anything simply because of the fusing/auto detonate feature and that that max range was shorter in the verticle than in the horizontal. AAA fire in WWII was more about disrupting and damaging aircraft than actually shooting them down, thus soft kills over hard kills. Only until the advent of the late war guided missile (i.e. kamikaze) did it become important to actually hard kill the target far enough away that it would miss even if it went ballistic (read dead pilot). Indeed it took quite a few rounds to shoot down an aircraft from AAA guns.

For major caliber AA guns the timed fuzed shells did not have an impact detonator. The fuze could be set from .8 to 30 seconds on .2 second intervals. Thus at the very least there will be a min range and a max range that the gun/shell combo will be effective, somewhere between a little more than .8 to 30 seconds of flight time! Thus what I want to figure is the distance a shell can go at various angles during the time this time. this will be the absolute max and min an air target can be engaged. Thus for insatnce if an aa gun had an inital velocity of 3000fps then the round would be a little further than 2400 feet before it could explode.

Interesting discussion about flak. And in response to a thread started by Apollo11 several weeks back I did some digging into this area myself.

So several points in no particular order.

1. German ( 88mm ) had AA fuzes with 3 minimum settings, 1 second, 2 seconds and even 0. Of course the 0 minimum still had a minimum arming range, determined by a weighted rotating gyro that was activated by the round as in spun through and beyond the firing tube.

2. Regardless of the minimun range at which the round will be useful, heavy flak has another key issue with low altitude engagement and that is tracking. It is essentially impossible to track a low flying airplane across the engagement space for a heavy flak weapon. Thus to engage below a certain altitude, heavy flak has to switch from its designed directed engagement method, to the so-called barrage ( or barrier ) fire method. One description I have of German barrier fire technique for HAA, is that the barrels of the tubes are pre pointed at the sky in a pre-determined pattern. no attempt is made to "track" the target, merely to have the rounds explode in front of or in the middle of ... the attacking formation. It is stated that no enemy planes can be shot down by this type of fire, though it is hoped to "scare" them.

3. German first line AA units did not use barrage/barrier fire by doctrine, except during a few months in late 1940 overlapping into early 1941 ( I think you said you have Westermann - so you've got this info ) two reasons were, ammo was plentiful and directors were in short supply. Shootdown rates were however very low during this period, and first line HAA units were ordered to revert to directed fire only, in early 1941 and that remained the standing order for the rest of the war.

4. The Germans did have a fair number of ( seoncd line )HAA flak units which were manned by less trained crews and which used captured equipment, which for the most part did not have directors, hence these flak units did use barrage fire for the duration.

5. The primary success metric of the German flak was shoot downs of enemy planes. Both before and during the war. Yes they pointed out to themselves that causing the bombers to miss the target might be more or equally important, but the "enemy planes shot down" metric was never abandoned ( again per Westermann ).

So is there a "flak gap" ?? ... again sources are mixed on this .. Hogg clearly says yes and says this is what drove development of "medium flak" per war. USAAF late war training film says "flak gap is a myth" ... based on assimilation of what I've read to date ... my guess is that there is an altitude below which HAA falls off in effectiveness and this is probably somewhere between 5000-1000 feet ( at about the 2 second fuze point ) but fire is possible below that altitude though it is barrage fire and hence the accuracy is completely different than for directed fire above this point. The transition is not abrupt ( again Joe's guess ) but depends on many factors, including the crew itself. So if you really want to let HAA fire ( and this whole discussion is about land based flak firing at level bombers striking land targets ) barrage fire ( below say 5,000-8,000 feet ) then in the game, you may have to create separate device types ( like the german captured equipment ! ) which only fire barrage fire ... and maybe put them in separate units ( or not ). But I can't think of how you could model a flak unit switching back and forth between barrage fire and directed fire, in the game.


Oh and finally regarding ballistics ... going back a few years .. but my memory ( we had to learn this in non-linear ODE class ) is that ballistics curve is a parabola ( though purists will point out it is an ellipse though you only need to use elipse when you are leaving the atmosphere ) and can be modelled with a second order ODE. Note that with the simple model, terminal velocity ( the speed of the projectile when it again contacts the ground and the end of flight ) is equal to the initial velocity ... this is despite the fact that the velocity decreases to zero while on the upward path and then has to re-increase back to the initial velocity on the downward path. In the simple model the effects of gravity are reciprocal and equal(through reversed ) in either direction. Of course one can complpexify the model by tossing in air resistance and object shape and object rotation, air density etc., but if your purpose is to develop data for WITP these complexitites may not be worth the trouble.
Whereas if you're developing an ICBM guidance system then they absolutely are !!!




WITP Admiral's Edition - Project Lead
War In Spain - Project Lead
User avatar
akdreemer
Posts: 1028
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:43 am
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Contact:

RE: CHS Mod Proposal

Post by akdreemer »

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
The B17 and B24 bombed from altitudes way below 30k (although above 20k) for several reasons. The primary was the lack of cabin pressurization that made it extremely difficult for adequate oxygen flow. The extreme cold temperature at altitides above 30k would cause high rates of mechanical and equipement failure as well as being well above the level of sustained human endurance. Finally, the fully laden bombers could not effeciently higher.

You make some good points. If it is true that in nearly all cases heavy bombers did not operate above the mid 20,000s of feet, then I would not be opposed to reducing their max altitude to these levels in the game (to "bend" reality as jwilkerson commented). I believe there were exceptions though, such as the B-29; were there any others? I am no expert on things to do with aircraft, so I am not sure.

Andrew

Any pressurized aircraft like the B-29 should be able to, indeed its operational altitude is around 31500 feet (IIRC). I was using non-pressurized aircraft examples since they represented the vast majority of aircraft in WWII.
User avatar
akdreemer
Posts: 1028
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:43 am
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Contact:

RE: CHS Mod Proposal

Post by akdreemer »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Well I wasn't trying to justify it from a real world perspective - but just offering up a way to implement a house rule in the data. But yes there were certainly problems with flying at 30,000+ ...
So are you saying that the lack of historical/real world data is a better reason to do something? I had not thought about the altitude limitation until I re-read some of the air war books and especially Westermann's book on German Flak, then it all made sense to me and it dawned on me that Nik had some veracity in the 25k limit, but for the wrong reasons.

Ha, ha - nope certainly not.

I have no idea why "they" want to do this. Andrew was opposed to some of Nik's changes because they required a house rule that limited bombing missions to ( under ) 25,000 feet. I was merely trying to propose a way to make it not be a house rule. Sometimes, unfortunately, we have to "curb" realilty to fit into the engine.

Reality in this case involves opening Pandora's box, with all that implies.
el cid again
Posts: 16984
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: CHS Mod Proposal

Post by el cid again »

It is essentially impossible to track a low flying airplane across the engagement space for a heavy flak weapon.

Yes - IF the target is crossing at close range -

But no IF the target is closing. If there is little or no bearing drift, the heavy AAA weapon will serve just fine.

Also, NORMALLY three inch is "heavy" AAA - but the US late three inch and the second Japanese naval three inch are so able to track they are not really heavy - and could REPLACE medium for that reason

el cid again
Posts: 16984
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: CHS Mod Proposal

Post by el cid again »

One description I have of German barrier fire technique for HAA, is that the barrels of the tubes are pre pointed at the sky in a pre-determined pattern. no attempt is made to "track" the target, merely to have the rounds explode in front of or in the middle of ... the attacking formation. It is stated that no enemy planes can be shot down by this type of fire, though it is hoped to "scare" them.

This is what we ran into in Viet Nam - and it usually worked this way- but they HOPED to kill too - and IF the approach was predictable for any reason they set the patterns more narrowly. They even used ROCKS as AAA - later rocks tied together with piano wire!!! [Dynamite put the rocks in the air]. This was for when you had to do a low level approach from a predictable direction. Turns out rocks are hard on airplanes and their engines!
el cid again
Posts: 16984
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: CHS Mod Proposal

Post by el cid again »

So is there a "flak gap" ?? ... again sources are mixed on this .. Hogg clearly says yes and says this is what drove development of "medium flak" per war. USAAF late war training film says "flak gap is a myth" ...

This may be true - for AMERICANS! The Japanese - with only 25mm (and mgs) and heavy guns - probably STILL had a "flak gap." They had some poor Vickers 40mms imported before the war, and they made two variants of the Bofors (captured at Singapore), but they never made many of either.

Sid
el cid again
Posts: 16984
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: CHS Mod Proposal

Post by el cid again »

Oh and finally regarding ballistics ... going back a few years .. but my memory ( we had to learn this in non-linear ODE class ) is that ballistics curve is a parabola ( though purists will point out it is an ellipse though you only need to use elipse when you are leaving the atmosphere ) and can be modelled with a second order ODE. Note that with the simple model, terminal velocity ( the speed of the projectile when it again contacts the ground and the end of flight ) is equal to the initial velocity ... this is despite the fact that the velocity decreases to zero while on the upward path and then has to re-increase back to the initial velocity on the downward path. In the simple model the effects of gravity are reciprocal and equal(through reversed ) in either direction. Of course one can complpexify the model by tossing in air resistance and object shape and object rotation, air density etc., but if your purpose is to develop data for WITP these complexitites may not be worth the trouble.
Whereas if you're developing an ICBM guidance system then they absolutely are !!!

For short ranges, the simple model works. For long ranges, it does not, because air resistence makes the shell depart from the parabolic path (it slows down, and gravity is constant, so the acceleration do to gravity is always present, but the movement from the original charge is being opposed by the air). Practically, Alaskan Warrior is right - long range shots are not going to work very well - and by long range I mean slant range - INCLUDING the vertical dimension. WITP AAA is not effective enough at lower altitudes and closer ranges, but too effective at higher altitudes. I suspect this can be fixed by programming two things:

1) Set the devices to effective altitude rather than maximum altitude
2) Make sure the dual purpose guns are rated as AA guns and have altitude ratings greater than zero

User avatar
akdreemer
Posts: 1028
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:43 am
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Contact:

RE: CHS Mod Proposal

Post by akdreemer »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Oh and finally regarding ballistics ... going back a few years .. but my memory ( we had to learn this in non-linear ODE class ) is that ballistics curve is a parabola ( though purists will point out it is an ellipse though you only need to use elipse when you are leaving the atmosphere ) and can be modelled with a second order ODE. Note that with the simple model, terminal velocity ( the speed of the projectile when it again contacts the ground and the end of flight ) is equal to the initial velocity ... this is despite the fact that the velocity decreases to zero while on the upward path and then has to re-increase back to the initial velocity on the downward path. In the simple model the effects of gravity are reciprocal and equal(through reversed ) in either direction. Of course one can complpexify the model by tossing in air resistance and object shape and object rotation, air density etc., but if your purpose is to develop data for WITP these complexitites may not be worth the trouble.
Whereas if you're developing an ICBM guidance system then they absolutely are !!!

For short ranges, the simple model works. For long ranges, it does not, because air resistence makes the shell depart from the parabolic path (it slows down, and gravity is constant, so the acceleration do to gravity is always present, but the movement from the original charge is being opposed by the air). Practically, Alaskan Warrior is right - long range shots are not going to work very well - and by long range I mean slant range - INCLUDING the vertical dimension. WITP AAA is not effective enough at lower altitudes and closer ranges, but too effective at higher altitudes. I suspect this can be fixed by programming two things:

1) Set the devices to effective altitude rather than maximum altitude
2) Make sure the dual purpose guns are rated as AA guns and have altitude ratings greater than zero


Precisely my point...
User avatar
Lemurs!
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:27 pm

RE: CHS Mod Proposal

Post by Lemurs! »

Yea, I think we did the logistics changes and the capacity of merchant ship changes first.

Also, I did small increases in aircraft durability for both sides. I am against large changes. First, the game essentially does not model attrition from operational sources.
Halsey figured he needed a new air group for a carrier every 3-4 months in non combat situations. The Japanese lost, what, 40-50% of the aircraft operationaly.
The game doesnot reflect this. I realize air combat is too bloody. But if we lower it we will not use up any where near our aircraft stocks.
Ask Joe if he has used up all his in his currect game.

Next, many AA weapons also fire at ships and ground units. Increasing their effectiveness increases it against everyone.

Mike
Image
User avatar
akdreemer
Posts: 1028
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:43 am
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Contact:

RE: CHS Mod Proposal

Post by akdreemer »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
It is essentially impossible to track a low flying airplane across the engagement space for a heavy flak weapon.

Yes - IF the target is crossing at close range -

But no IF the target is closing. If there is little or no bearing drift, the heavy AAA weapon will serve just fine.

Also, NORMALLY three inch is "heavy" AAA - but the US late three inch and the second Japanese naval three inch are so able to track they are not really heavy - and could REPLACE medium for that reason


Trouble is they lack the rate of fire to be rally effective in this role. The US developed the twin 3" auto, the smallest round at the time that could carry a VT fuze, that could fire up to 50 rounds a minute, but its introduction was well after the war was over. Both the British and the Germans attempted to develope a medium AAA, the British based on the 57mm and the Germans on a 55mm with projected high rates of fire, neither of which were successful with the British endeavor seen as being too complex for the technology at the time. The Germans might have fielded theirs if not for competing demands.
User avatar
akdreemer
Posts: 1028
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 12:43 am
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Contact:

RE: CHS Mod Proposal

Post by akdreemer »

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Yea, I think we did the logistics changes and the capacity of merchant ship changes first.

Also, I did small increases in aircraft durability for both sides. I am against large changes. First, the game essentially does not model attrition from operational sources.
Halsey figured he needed a new air group for a carrier every 3-4 months in non combat situations. The Japanese lost, what, 40-50% of the aircraft operationaly.
The game doesnot reflect this. I realize air combat is too bloody. But if we lower it we will not use up any where near our aircraft stocks.
Ask Joe if he has used up all his in his currect game.

Next, many AA weapons also fire at ships and ground units. Increasing their effectiveness increases it against everyone.

Mike

Hey, Welcome back....
el cid again
Posts: 16984
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: CHS Mod Proposal

Post by el cid again »

Next, many AA weapons also fire at ships and ground units. Increasing their effectiveness increases it against everyone.

Maybe not. It appears that most - maybe all - dual purpose weapons have NO altitude rating. IF dual purpose guns can function as AA at all, they are NOT doing so with zero in the altitude field. IF the code won't let them function at all - well they still are not shooting.

I BET that IF we make the DP guns work - THEN AA will be more deadly - without ANY change to effect against surface targets. There are two ways we might do this:

1) Give the DP guns an altitude value. IF the code lets them be AA guns, we fixed it.

2) Redefine AA gus as if they were DP guns! Then we still fixed it even if the code is too dumb to let DP be DP.

User avatar
michaelm75au
Posts: 12463
Joined: Sat May 05, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

RE: CHS Mod Proposal

Post by michaelm75au »

DP guns need to have an altitude setting, otherwise they do not shoot at planes.
Some of the official scenarios where type was wrong/or no altitude was set were fixed in 1.60.

Land guns that fire at planes need to be AA gun and have an altitude setting.

Michael
Michael
User avatar
Ron Saueracker
Posts: 10967
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:00 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece

RE: CHS Mod Proposal

Post by Ron Saueracker »

Woohoo, the newly married guy found some quiet time! Hey, Mike![:)]
Image

Image

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
Post Reply

Return to “Scenario Design”