BoB wish list

[wernerpruckner]

Hi DBS,

as VS said, good to see some old hands [:)]

Werner

[DBS]

You're too kind. Back from Baggers, nice to be able to return to this.

I do have the excellent English Heritage book on AA Command - IIRC has figures for AA numbers circa BoB. Will dig out tonight and check. I must say that one of my pet issues with BoB, and even more so BTR, has always been the quantity (and subsequent effectiveness) of light flak at airfields. I am willing to be corrected by Luftwaffe experts, but have always been a bit dubious about 100 guns around one field as you so often see in BTR - how could you physically fit that many guns in sensible positions around one airstrip, at least in a manner in which they could engage low-level attackers? Certainly for BoB the numbers are OTT - I am sure that the average for an RAF field in 1940 was three to six Lewises, with maybe the off medium cal weapon.

[DBS]

Have just checked some bits I posted (three years ago - eeek) on Jean-Claude's fora re BoB AA Command. Cut and pasted for ease:

1/ British AA defences, at least in terms of light and medium weapons - heavy is a whole different can of worms! - are probably too prolific. An RDF site with 3 Bofors and perhaps a dozen LMGs was considered to have the best point defence available.... Yes, AA Command had 3,538 light/medium guns in June 1940. But many of these went to sites outside the BoB target list. Small ports, for example, or searchlight batteries: given Lewis Guns for fear of strafing attacks. The single biggest concentration of Bofors was at Dowding's HQ at Bentley Priory - eight Bofors!

(Breakdown of June 1940 guns:
- 3028 x Lewis LMGs
- 37 x Hispano 20mm
- 114 x 2pdr pom-poms (mainly twin mounts I think)
- 132 x 3" modified for low-level work (different sights, fuses, etc. Other 3" guns were rated for medium work)
- 227 x Bofors 40mm)

2/ Radar stations are probably too vulnerable to bombing, at least on the South Coast where full infrastructure was most developed. Yes, Ventnor went off air, but the others took quite a pounding. Not a single mast came down. CHL stations will have been much less resilient, not least given their very hurried construction, but equally will have been much less obvious targets, with only 20 foot high gantries. One could almost argue that CHL should be non-targetable, along the lines of the HQs, with the CH rated for better hardening. Quite different to many of the German radars in BTR in terms of vulnerabilities.

3/ As in BTR, AA guns in BoB are allowed to get off far too many shots at low-level attackers. Some of the Bofors guns only reported 5-7 rounds fired during the heavy attacks! OK, British Army flak crews in 1940 a lot less experienced than some Luftwaffe flak crews of 1944, but on the other hand, the whole point of low-flying is to be spotted at the last moment. Instead of which, in BTR and BoB, raiders at, say, 400 feet get subjected to bursts of gunfire before they reach the target, then another burst over the target itself.

And a post giving a bit deeper detail:

In September 1939, RDF stations had highest priority of all on AA Command's list of Vulnerable Points. It may seem odd, but RAF airfields were only added to the list in summer 1940, their point defence being left up till then to RAF personnel and ad hoc loan of troops from nearby Army units.

Anyway, despite the appalling shortages of guns that AA Command suffered from, each of the 20 RDF stations in service in Sep 39 received three Bofors 40mm, the best Light AA Gun available. The entire Command only had 72 in total. This rose to 227 by June 1940.

Three Bofors per RDF site became the 1940 standard. During 1940, static structures were built for the guns, the RDF again getting highest priority. These structures included 10 to 30 foot flak towers where necessary to improve the field of fire. None of the old 3inch guns went to RDF sites: they were given to 12 Group Fighter Stations, plus the more vulnerable Bomber Command bases. By far the most common Light AA weapon was the Lewis Gun on a pedestal mount. Of 3538 light weapons in AA Command in June 1940, 3028 were Lewis Guns.

The defences at Dunkirk CH station on 12 August - when it was bombed - were the three Bofors, plus eleven Lewis MGs. The attacks of 12 August were studied in detail, because, although several RDF sites had been attacked, and they had the pick of the available guns, only one claim of a damaged Bf-110 had been reported. It was realised that the guns were often badly sited, with poor arcs of fire, particularly against low-level targets - AA Command had been very much the Cinderella during rearmament, and the crews were having very much to learn the hard way. Anyway, big improvements made to siting, etc.

[Nikademus]

My recent experiences have given me more than i wanted in terms of familiarity with AA and the issues that surround them.

Because of those experiences I am cautious about too much of an effort to neuter AA gun effectiveness lest it encourage play that leaves common sense and reality behind. Here's a basic question......does BoB/BTR treat AA guns at an airfield any differently than say, over a City?

[Speedysteve]

Hi Dave,

Good to see ya.

Steven

[otisabuser2]

Hi DBS,

still greatful for your info on that book. Went and bought it too as a result.

Wasn't there another by the same author about decoy sites, smoke sites etc ? Did you ever get that one ?

Here's a good link to the Italians in BoB. There is one raid where they were escorted by Bf109, so that solves that one.

http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/falco_bob.htm

[Hard Sarge]

Hi DBS
thanks for the info, and glad to see ya around

OB
ahh, thanks, that is the site I had and lost, kewl

Niki
will have to talk with the programmer, he is going over the code now, so not sure if it is the same or not, but from playing, I think it is different, very light defence at a AF can do major damage to a sweep, way too much damage

which, will need to do some talking about troops and AA, I still think for the most part, AA guns assigned to troops, should only fire if the troop is attacked, they didn't just open up on any passing plane, plus the Heavy Flak was normaly moved, to be able to Guard areas of importence in the general zone of deployment (bridges)

[otisabuser2]

which, will need to do some talking about troops and AA, I still think for the most part, AA guns assigned to troops, should only fire if the troop is attacked, they didn't just open up on any passing plane, plus the Heavy Flak was normaly moved, to be able to Guard areas of importence in the general zone of deployment (bridges

Roger that, HS.

Have been to some of the AA Command Sites in Britain. One in Slade Green, Kent is built on flat ground ( OK a marsh ! )in a loop in the river Thames. This would have given a superb field of fire for mile around of any high level attack on London. There is another nearby in Crayford on the top of a low hill. Again a marvellous view across the Thames and Kent/Essex. It appears the sites would be fairly obvious from the air.

These were both semi static site thought out pre-war.

I imagine Divisional AA attached to units in places like Italy would not have had such clear arcs of fire. Not only would they be masked by mountains, but there would also be the need to hide these from the air to prevent both low level attack by aircraft and counter-battery fire from enemy artillery. They ought, as you say, to be far less effective at hitting just passing "trade".

regards Otisabuser

[otisabuser2]

Also HS,

in addition to Nik's question on flak, it would be useful to know if every type of AA weapon fires during a raid ?

What I mean is, in BoB we had three categories of flak ( heavy, med, light ). JC added extra types to the BTR database ( Flak 41, twin 128 etc ), but I've always wondered whether every weapon fired. Don't think the exec was changed when JC added the guns.

Thniking with regards to being worthwhile adding more weapon types to BoB.

regards Rob

[Uedel]

Well my absolute "Fantasy" Improvement would be the melting together BOB&BTR, where both sides have Action&Reaction Turns and both could controll their production + Both side must defend and can Attack. Time Period from 1940 to 1945 [:D][:D][:D]

[Hard Sarge]

Uedel
hmmm, did you also want to see the Russian front included in this ?

Basicly, I would have to say, we would not be able to get to this state, anytime soon, but, if things work out, who knows what we may be able to do

LOL, or even if our present puters could handle it (and I got a decent one)

but as far dreams go, you are not the only one

[Hard Sarge]

OB
JC has said he found a lot of hidden messages that do not get posted during the turn, and he hopes to turn them on during testing, so we can see, what could/should/shouldn't be added

we may be able to also turn on a fire report for testing (or have it print to a log ?) so we can see what all is really going on during a turn

hmmmm, interesting question to be honest, I do not know how the combat routine, really works or does, I don't know if each and every gun fires during a phase, or if some fire this phase and some fire that phase, or if the game adds all the AA factors up into a single number for the die roll (IE, target at 17,000, 35 37mm = 0, 45 20mm =0, 12 88,, =96, 96/215 planes, equal this roll table. roll the die, 1 kill, 3 damaged)

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: otisabuser2

Also HS,

in addition to Nik's question on flak, it would be useful to know if every type of AA weapon fires during a raid ?

What I mean is, in BoB we had three categories of flak ( heavy, med, light ). JC added extra types to the BTR database ( Flak 41, twin 128 etc ), but I've always wondered whether every weapon fired. Don't think the exec was changed when JC added the guns.

Thniking with regards to being worthwhile adding more weapon types to BoB.

regards Rob

well, we can test this

be right back

[Hard Sarge]

oops, maybe I should say, I can test this, not sure if many others can

okay

FIRST OFF, LET ME SAY, JC'S FLAK GUNS WORK

LOL

dang that hurt just watching

[DBS]

OB

Wasn't there another by the same author about decoy sites, smoke sites etc ? Did you ever get that one ?

Afraid so... And guess what - I ordered his Radar book last night from Amazon straight off after coming off this forum.

The decoy book (Fields of Deception) is also very good - the ingenuity of the decoys was nothing short of remarkable. Will revisit it next couple of days: most of the schemes are strictly speaking post BoB, although the first efforts were of course already in evidence during the period. But from memory most relevant to a few high value targets at this stage, such as the decoy for the Harwich works.

HS - don't know whether there is any interest/scope for decoys in the reworking, but if there is, happy either to create a thread in a couple of days time with precis there of the August 1940 situation, or send by PM or email. Whatever suits. Similarly, will revisit the whole AA issue for BoB, starting with Dobinson's book but hopefully widened with some other good sources if the Library hasn't binned them in my absence overseas... In short, any areas you want researched in particular?

David

[otisabuser2]

Hi David,

before you go too far researching AA stuff, you may want to PM me. I have already done some work on this.

Our big grey area is stats for the weapons. Ceilings and the like.

regards Otis

[otisabuser2]

Hi HS,

FIRST OFF, LET ME SAY, JC'S FLAK GUNS WORK

in that case we should be able to add more types in BoB. [8D]

cheers Rob

[DBS]

Otis

before you go too far researching AA stuff, you may want to PM me. I have already done some work on this.

Our big grey area is stats for the weapons. Ceilings and the like.

PM'd you mate.

[Hard Sarge]

Hi DBS
I know from before , JC was working on some of the decoy ideas, but for the GE side in BTR

don't know if we could get any in to BoB, but besides the info for the game, I would like to see some info for my own interest, so post away as you get info or anything of interest

hook up with OB, he been working on the BoB side for a while

[HMSWarspite]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

oops, maybe I should say, I can test this, not sure if many others can

okay

FIRST OFF, LET ME SAY, JC'S FLAK GUNS WORK

LOL

dang that hurt just watching

What were you doing? Flying 1000 B17 around at 10000 in circles over flak sites? How do you lose 143 a/c to flak, 132 of them B17F? You must post this turn in the 'what not to do section![;)]