Informal POLL Re: Oscar

[esteban]

I could see giving them the "zero bonus", or just upping their maneuverability to 36/37

[rtrapasso]

In doing research on the P-38 (still) it seems the Oscars were dangerous opponents even late in the war. P-38s were doing a number on the Oscar airfields, until the raid on Meiktila on 6 June 1944.

On that date, the 459th FS set off from Chittagong, India (now Bangladesh) with 20 P-38s in 2 groups of 10 each. They were ambushed by the crack 64th Sentai (noted for their gaudily painted Oscars) jumped the P-38s "in overwhelming force" (whatever that is). The Oscars managed to shoot down some P-38s (shooting down the 2 aces in the squadron, Capt Duke and Lt. Goodrich) and vice versa (shooting down the 25-kill ace Goichi Sumino) - and this seemed to calm the ardor of the P-38s to attack the Oscar fields for a little while.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

In doing research on the P-38 (still) it seems the Oscars were dangerous opponents even late in the war. P-38s were doing a number on the Oscar airfields, until the raid on Meiktila on 6 June 1944.

On that date, the 459th FS set off from Chittagong, India (now Bangladesh) with 20 P-38s in 2 groups of 10 each. They were ambushed by the crack 64th Sentai (noted for their gaudily painted Oscars) jumped the P-38s "in overwhelming force" (whatever that is). The Oscars managed to shoot down some P-38s (shooting down the 2 aces in the squadron, Capt Duke and Lt. Goodrich) and vice versa (shooting down the 25-kill ace Goichi Sumino) - and this seemed to calm the ardor of the P-38s to attack the Oscar fields for a little while.

Interesting. What was the date rtrapasso, and can you site your source?

[Sneer]

I doubt if such result is possible in game [8D]

[Big B]

Are we to assume that 'overwhelming' numbers of Oscars cannot shoot down a couple of P-38s on a straffing run? (I rather think they can in the game)

I've seen Oscars shoot down plenty of P-40s in the games I've played, espcially when they have the 'numbers' on them by magnitudes of two or more - which is what the above situation describes or implies.

I haven't seen that result with P-38s because alas - I had no P-38s...still waiting for them when game ended.

B

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

In doing research on the P-38 (still) it seems the Oscars were dangerous opponents even late in the war. P-38s were doing a number on the Oscar airfields, until the raid on Meiktila on 6 June 1944.

On that date, the 459th FS set off from Chittagong, India (now Bangladesh) with 20 P-38s in 2 groups of 10 each. They were ambushed by the crack 64th Sentai (noted for their gaudily painted Oscars) jumped the P-38s "in overwhelming force" (whatever that is). The Oscars managed to shoot down some P-38s (shooting down the 2 aces in the squadron, Capt Duke and Lt. Goodrich) and vice versa (shooting down the 25-kill ace Goichi Sumino) - and this seemed to calm the ardor of the P-38s to attack the Oscar fields for a little while.

Interesting. What was the date rtrapasso, and can you site your source?

This is from P-38 Lightning Aces of the Pacific and CBI by John Stanaway (Osprey Aircraft of the Aces 14) pages 79, 82-83. Date (as noted) 6 June 1944. Curiously, this was not mentioned in the USAAF "day by day" diary on the web, but i think there was something else going on that day that might have overshadowed this...[:D][:'(]

[TheElf]

My P-38s in my PBEM have lost only onenor two aricraft to the Oscar CAP over Kendari. And they weren't outright kills, they were damaged and did not make it back to base. I have sent one squadron(24) up against an equal to slightly larger number of Oscars plus the odd A6M3 and come away with anywhere between 3-7 kills for usually no loss. The P-38 squadron at Lautem flying these Sweeps started with EXP of 58. They are now EXP 61. They get a day of rest between missions.

My opponent haas hoarded his Oscars since the early part of our game. Very little has been seen of them so I assume they are/were around low to mid 70's in EXP.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

My P-38s in my PBEM have lost only onenor two aricraft to the Oscar CAP over Kendari. And they weren't outright kills, they were damaged and did not make it back to base. I have sent one squadron(24) up against an equal to slightly larger number of Oscars plus the odd A6M3 and come away with anywhere between 3-7 kills for usually no loss. The P-38 squadron at Lautem flying these Sweeps started with EXP of 58. They are now EXP 61. They get a day of rest between missions.

My opponent has hoarded his Oscars since the early part of our game. Very little has been seen of them so I assume they are/were around low to mid 70's in EXP.

That does seem a bad show for the Oscars. In fairness to the above posting by rtrapasso - that wouldn't represent an 'overwhleming' number of Oscars though.
Sounds like the perfect setup for a test if anyone cares to - get an average of the KI43's kill loss ratio with different aircraft ...and at different odds.

It would be quite interesting to see the results...

B

[Kenyoshi]

I am playing my first PBM as Japaneese against Terminus and I have a Squadron of Oscars in Burma in December that have tangled with the AVG and have registered 15 kills while losing about half of that number. Realize that they will get outclassed in mid 42 but they are doing fine for me at the moment.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Big B


In fairness to the above posting by rtrapasso - that wouldn't represent an 'overwhleming' number of Oscars though.

B

True. I was taking aim more at the importance of EXP in A2A.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Kenyoshi

I am playing my first PBM as Japaneese against Terminus and I have a Squadron of Oscars in Burma in December that have tangled with the AVG and have registered 15 kills while losing about half of that number. Realize that they will get outclassed in mid 42 but they are doing fine for me at the moment.

This is good to hear.

[m10bob]

I am glad you started this thread Elf..It has forced me to realize that the Oscar was so under-represented in WITP, (as far as its' effectiveness.)
Seeing actual historical comments and seeing how even other gamers have come to respect it (in other games and simulations) also serves to point out you were not alone..
And I thought you were just an artist !!

[TheElf]

I am just an artist. This whole Oscar thing was just a rouse[;)]
I have no idea what I'm talking about...honestly.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

I am just an artist. This whole Oscar thing was just a rouse[;)]
I have no idea what I'm talking about...honestly.

Then...The word is R U S E.......[:'(]

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Big B


In fairness to the above posting by rtrapasso - that wouldn't represent an 'overwhleming' number of Oscars though.

B

True. I was taking aim more at the importance of EXP in A2A.

You know, I do believe that the single most important aspect in a2a in this game is exp...by a very very very wide margin.

I'll bet if you take a crack KI 43 IIa Sentai of say - 36 planes avg exp 80 to 90, and put them up against 16 guys in P38-Js with avg exp 60 to 65 - thus duplicating m10bob's historic encounter I would bet the Oscars come out on top most every time at that exp and numbers differential....

Test! we need a test!

B

Edited for spelling...hey it was early in the morning - pre-coffee

[Speedysteve]

Hi Big B,

I think Nik listed before the top 2 factors in A2A combat in WiTP are:

Speed
Firepower (gun value)

I think experience was 3-5 on the list.

Regards,

Steven

[DFalcon]

ORIGINAL: Big B


I'll bet if you take a crack KI 43 IIa Sentai of say - 36 planes avg exp 80 to 90, and put them up against 16 guys in P38-Js with avg exp 60 to 65 - thus duplicating m10bob's historic encounter I would bet the Oscars come out on top most every time at that exp and numbers differential....

Test! we need a test!

B

I would be interested to see the results of this as well. If I have some time tonight maybe I will run a test like this.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: DFalcon

ORIGINAL: Big B


I'll bet if you take a crack KI 43 IIa Sentai of say - 36 planes avg exp 80 to 90, and put them up against 16 guys in P38-Js with avg exp 60 to 65 - thus duplicating m10bob's historic encounter I would bet the Oscars come out on top most every time at that exp and numbers differential....

Test! we need a test!

B

I would be interested to see the results of this as well. If I have some time tonight maybe I will run a test like this.

Well Speedy says Nik already figured it out...but I'd still like to see it - especially since they don't release their combat algorithms...
This could be as revealing as unmasking the famed Aleutian Zero

B

[Bombur]

-In my game vs Nik (Nik mod) Ki-43 I´s vs P-40´s from the AVG are getting 2:3 kill losses (favoring the P-40´s). In Nik mod Ki-43´s are useful against P-40´s and they easily beat the Buffalo, but they are almost useless against bombers (which is correct from my POV, btw)

[mdiehl]

Does anyone actually know how many P40B/C/Es or P38s were downed by Oscars during World War 2?