4E bombers,greatest bug of all

[hawker]

I just want to say few words about 4E bombers.It is pain how that machines can do great damage.In real life it is not possible.
Put it this way,50 B-17s stand no chance versus 100 zeros,they will be obliterated.
German messerschmitd destroys B-17s which fly without escort like ducks.Ok,messerschmitd is better plain than Zero but still...
It just ruin the game.I am not afraid of anything in allies arsenal but 4E is overrated much.I am former pilot of Croatia airforce and aircrafts are my hobby,in this game allies 4E bombers are like B-2 bombers of modern days

[Capt. Harlock]

In real life it is not possible.
Put it this way,50 B-17s stand no chance versus 100 zeros,they will be obliterated.
German messerschmitd destroys B-17s which fly without escort like ducks.Ok,messerschmitd is better plain than Zero

Actually, the Zeroes had trouble from the beginning against the B-17's. The Zero's light machine guns were almost useless against the Forts, and their 20mm cannons had only seven seconds' worth of ammo. The philosophy of the Zero was that speed and maneuverability would prevent the fighter from taking any hits, so there was no need for armor. But there was no angle to attack a B-17 that would not expose the Zero to .50 cal defensive fire, and a single incendiary round in a fuel tank could be fatal. I have heard of a case in the Phillipines where a B-17 was attacked by over a dozen Japanese fighters, and still made it back to base (badly damaged) while downing half of the bogeys.

The Me-109's were better suited for the anti-Fortress mission, but even they had trouble. (They were rather more successful against the B-24, which was why all B-17's were eventually assigned to the European theater, and many B-24's were diverted to the Pacific.) Until the introduction of the "chin" turret on the B-17, the German pilots got their best results by flying head-on at the Fortresses and dodging at the last second. But the Zero did not pump out enough shells per second to do enough damage during the very short time between coming into effective range and having to evade.

[Sneer]

the problem is that later Japan fighters are much better suited to the role and effect are slim too

[worr]

ORIGINAL: hawker
German messerschmitd destroys B-17s which fly without escort like ducks.

Always make sure your point of comparison is right in the first place.

Even unescorted, B-17s were not detered from their target. Worst day was Oct 14, Black Thursday, but still 80% made it back.

So complaints that such and such 4E bomber raid should have been "obliterated" because in real life they were...are a far cry from the truth.

Worr, out

[Yamato hugger]

Nothing brings out the fanboyism like any thread with "4E" in the title.



Rant on!

[Sneer]

I would expect that 2e fighters Ki45 armed in 37 and 20 cannons armored and having reasonable durability can be solution for smaller raids - they are not
but it is rather number of sorties allied players have on 4e what cause problems
Am I a fanboy? - maybe - playing Japan offers me bigger challenge that's all

[hawker]

Even unescorted, B-17s were not detered from their target.

Example:
Allied side-horde of 4Es escorting by P-51
German side-1 ME-262
Time frame:15 min.
Result:about 20 4E shot down(allies thought there are attacked by aliens[;)]).
They surely detered from their target.
You are not convince me that this game dont favors 4E.

the problem is that later Japan fighters are much better suited to the role and effect are slim too

Apsolutely correct Sneer[&o]

[Yamato hugger]

[:D]

I dont believe the Me262 carried enough rounds for its 37mm to knock down 20 bombers alone if they were all lined up in a row and not shooting back.

[pauk]

good luck with this issue but i can already tell you a result: this thread will:

a) died slowly (because our dear Allied fanboys don't like to talk about) or

b) this thread will grow to 10 pages or more, including all arguments why B17 are not the biggest problem (notorious Zero bonus, overpowered zero ability to deal with forts...etc NOTE: some of arguments are valid but ONLY if several things are changed - slower repair rate of forts, tweaked naval attack for B17 etc...)

however the main issue stays: B17 are overpowered and several glitchs in the game certainly doesn't helps:

#1 broken japanese AA fire (see Apollo11 threads about it)
#2 broken japanese radar (see japanese radar thread started by Tophat in war room)

unforutnatly, we haven't got any respons from officials on #1 and #2 and i doubt that this will be ever fixed (honestly i don't know why, but suspect we are silent minority here on forum and it is not worth effort - all other glitchs/bugs on the allied side are promptly fixed)

ORIGINAL: Sneer
the problem is that later Japan fighters are much better suited to the role and effect are slim too

bingo!

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

and their 20mm cannons had only seven seconds' worth of ammo.

IIRC, german fighters of WWII (and their british counterparts from Battle for Britain) had similar ammo (7-11 sec on full fire)?

I'm not expert but i have this data somewhere in my head (from documentary film) and i could be wrong...

[hawker]

I dont believe the Me262 carried enough rounds for its 37mm to knock down 20 bombers alone if they were all lined up in a row and not shooting back.

You forget rockets[8D].

however the main issue stays: B17 are overpowered

CORRECT

[Yamato hugger]

I know the Hurricane in BoB had 10 seconds of fire. Dont recall which model, probably 2b (?).

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

[:D]

I dont believe the Me262 carried enough rounds for its 37mm to knock down 20 bombers alone if they were all lined up in a row and not shooting back.

Well, i have to dig it, but pretty sure that single Me 262 shot down 5 allied bombers in one mission.

[hawker]

The fighter version, named Schwalbe (swallow), was armed with four 30mm guns in the nose, giving it an enormous punch which easily destroyed a heavy bomber, and also a stand-off firing range advantage vs. the bombers' defensive weapons. Before the end of the war it was also armed with R4M unguided 50mm air-to-air rockets, which also proved very lethal against bomber formations, also from stand-off range.

[niceguy2005]

Even unescorted, B-17s were not detered from their target.

Example:
Allied side-horde of 4Es escorting by P-51
German side-1 ME-262
Time frame:15 min.
Result:about 20 4E shot down(allies thought there are attacked by aliens[;)]).
They surely detered from their target.
You are not convince me that this game dont favors 4E.
[/quote]
Sources! I want names of publications and documents that verify this claim.

I suspect it was a quote from a german pilot looking to score with a fruelien (sp?) [:D

[hawker]

Pauk,
You are right,allied fanboys will never admit that 4E bombers are overrated[;)].

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: hawker

The fighter version, named Schwalbe (swallow), was armed with four 30mm guns in the nose, giving it an enormous punch which easily destroyed a heavy bomber, and also a stand-off firing range advantage vs. the bombers' defensive weapons. Before the end of the war it was also armed with R4M unguided 50mm air-to-air rockets, which also proved very lethal against bomber formations, also from stand-off range.

And, with all respect, this has to do with WiTP how? [8|]

Simple solution to the 4E problem for Japan. House rule that no more than 2 or 3 squadrons of 4E can ever attack a single target on a single day from the same base. Historically, I don't think 4Es were used in mass. Of course I don't think the Japs really put up 100+ Zero CAP either. So, really I say, forget about it...enjoy the game.

[hawker]

On 18.03 1945 group of Me 262s intercepted a force of 1000+ bombers and 600+ escorting fighters. They managed to shoot down 12 bombers and one fighter.[8D]

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


Simple solution to the 4E problem for Japan. House rule that no more than 2 or 3 squadrons of 4E can ever attack a single target on a single day from the same base. Historically, I don't think 4Es were used in mass. Of course I don't think the Japs really put up 100+ Zero CAP either. So, really I say, forget about it...enjoy the game.

Well thats probably the single biggest "abuse" in the game, and not just 4E bombers. I have seen in recent games:

600+ aircraft based at Rangoon (level 5 airfield)
40 Jap units marching around China together
300+ aircraft in Kendari on "naval search"
I myself conducted an anphib operation using 6 divs and support.
49 units stacked at Tawara.

On and on.

[hawker]

Niceguy,

And, with all respect, this has to do with WiTP how?

If there is ME-262 in WITP those B-17s would shot them down like a popcorn.Thats my point.Game suffers big time becouse of that.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: hawker

Niceguy,

And, with all respect, this has to do with WiTP how?

If there is ME-262 in WITP those B-17s would shot them down like a popcorn.Thats my point.Game suffers big time becouse of that.

#1) there isnt
#2) you dont know that
#3) who cares?