B17s vs IJN CAs

[ChezDaJez]

Situation: PBEM Scenario 15 v1.6 8/24/42:

My opponent has been bombing the crap out of my airfield at Maumere with hundreds of B-17s and B-24s from Derby. He has entirely shut down this airfield and the Av suuport is down to 3. I believe that he will eventually move these bombers to Koepang where he has built a size 5 airfield. To forestall that move, I have bombed Koepang and have managed to maintain damage levels at Koepang over 90% through daily bombing and twice weekly bombardments.

After several weeks of impotence against the bombers, I decided to take a chance and launched a fast bombardment mission against Derby with 4 CAs, 1 CL, and 4 DDs. Unfortunately, they were discovered 6 hexes out and bombed by every 4E bomber at Derby. The first 60-70 bombers failed to locate their targets, then the metal rain began.

It was with great trepidation that I opened the combat report at the end of the turn:

Day Air attack on TF at 25,79

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 6
B-24D Liberator x 7

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 3 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CL Oi
CA Haguro
CA Nachi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 25,79

Allied aircraft
LB-30 Liberator x 17
B-24D Liberator x 6

Allied aircraft losses
LB-30 Liberator: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
CA Atago
CA Mogami
CA Nachi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 25,79

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 75
LB-30 Liberator x 20
B-24D Liberator x 36

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged
LB-30 Liberator: 2 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
CL Oi, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 5, on fire
CA Atago, Bomb hits 1
CA Nachi, Bomb hits 1
DD Minazuki
CA Mogami, Bomb hits 7, on fire
DD Uzuki

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 25,79

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 48
LB-30 Liberator x 123
B-24D Liberator x 96

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
CA Atago, Bomb hits 8, on fire
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 12, on fire
CA Nachi, Bomb hits 5, on fire
CA Mogami, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Minazuki
DD Uzuki
DD Hibiki
DD Samidare

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 25,79

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 12

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CL Oi, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


By the thime the 4th raid arrived overhead, all ships were pretty much out of AA ammo. That accounts for the diminishing damage done to the attackers.

I opened the TF screen expecting to see a lot of dead and dying ships so imagine my surprise when I saw this:

I think I got very lucky.

Chez

[ADavidB]

I opened the TF screen expecting to see a lot of dead and dying ships so imagine my surprise when I saw this:

Japanese heavy cruisers are armored like battleships in this game. As long as your opponent doesn't have torpedo bombers around you can use your CAs with total indifference to the Allied level bombers.

And just don't ask about Japanese BBs.

That's why I never bother using Allied 4-E bombers against Japanese combat TFs. they can't damage them.

Have fun -

Dave Baranyi

[Tom Hunter]

In my Lunacy game I recently saw a Dauntless put a 1,000 pounder through the decks of a CA. But I agree with David the 250 and 500 lb bombs don't do a lot to the CAs.

However any ship that is on fire at night is in big trouble if an enemy surface combat TF shows up.

[Admiral DadMan]

With those many bomb hits, you'd expect that there aren't any gunmounts left. If nothing else, what about the torpedoes in the launchers being detonated? That's been known to happen (see: Mikuma at Battle of Midway)

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez


I think I got very lucky.

Chez

This may depend upon what version you are playing. I read in an update that they were going to up the damage done by 500lb bombs to BBs and I would assume CAs. My facts could be off though as my memory of that is a little fuzzy. What version are you playing?

[ChezDaJez]

Japanese heavy cruisers are armored like battleships in this game. As long as your opponent doesn't have torpedo bombers around you can use your CAs with total indifference to the Allied level bombers.

I see two problems here.

(1) The number of hits obtained is very excessive given warships moving at full speed on the high seas. I can understand a few hits here and there simply from the sheer number of bombers involved but there is simply no way they would have been this accurate IRL.

and...

(2) The small amount of damage caused by these bombs (and I assume they were 500lb GP) was ridiculous. The Haguro took 17 bombs. I know of no ship that could have withstood that kind of pounding, not even an Iowa class battleship without substantial topside damage. The only result here was 6 sys damage points (she already had 3) and 38 fire points. Only 1 AA gun was destroyed. The CL Oi took 7 bombs and lost only 1 5.5 in gun. Her radar isn't even damaged! Yet according to the sys dam of 99, every thing topside should be a shambles. The other ships are the same way.

It just doesn't make sense. Except for the OI, all these ships will be repaired within a week or two. The Oi probably won't make it back due to flooding and fire.

I have no problem with the small number of bombers downed or damaged. That seems about right. I don't know what altitude they bombed from but I would hope it was very low to justify the number of hits. I will have to ask my opponent.

Chez

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

With those many bomb hits, you'd expect that there aren't any gunmounts left. If nothing else, what about the torpedoes in the launchers being detonated? That's been known to happen (see: Mikuma at Battle of Midway)

That's why bombardment TFs are such a good weapon for the Japanese to use in the Game - they can do so much and so little can affect them. When I play the Japanese I use bombardment TFs almost exclusively as offensive weapons and leave my carriers off a ways to ambush incoming Allied surface combat TFs.

Cheers -

Dave Baranyi

[jrlans]

Nope the only collateral damge you get is from penatrating hits. Things like magazine explosion or AV Gas explosion (on a CV) can be quite deadly to the ship but i have never seen it happen on anything other than penetrating hit.

Moderate fires however will eventualy rack up the sys damage

[Alikchi2]

Those bombs should not be hitting anyways, but assuming we ignore that -

Your ships should be pretty badly battered if not in sinking condition.

[moses]

The first issue is how do the allies get 400+ heavy bombers operating out of Derby in late 42. Clearly impossible but I'll leave that for another thread.

But given that 400 heavy bombers are there what commander in his right mind would have sent nine surface ships into range of that mob without any fighter cover whatsoever. This is total insanity. This is something no commander would ever do. I don't know maybe you might try it during a path of severe weather but flying into enemy LBA without fighter cover is a big no-no.

I don't care what anyone thinks about the bombing ability of 4 engine bombers. Give me 400 bombers against your puny 9 ship TF sighted 300 miles out and you'll lose heavily. Hell the destroyers can probably be sunk just from the combined fire of 400 tailgunners.

Its one thing to dodge 5 or 6 bombloads dropped seperately from 20,000 ft. But 400 planes bombing from 4-6000 feet is a lot of dodging. After a while can the ships even keep up the AA fire? Sure there's not much historical precedent because the Japanese were not that nuts, but with such superiority there has to be a tactic that works.

In any event flying close to massive enemy LBA without air cover deserves punishment.

[John III]

While I in agree in spirit with Moses, this is yet again another example of crazy play. Echoing the 400+ bombers at Derby theme??!!--GAMEY! Those Bombers shouldn't have been able to hit the ships ANYWAY!--IRL!!!

[Feinder]

IJN CAs and BBs (and half their CVs) are all but immune to Allied LBA. The 250# and 500# bombs can start fires, but the deck armor prevents any penetrating hits (which is all you really have to worry about).

-F-

[Erik Rutins]

What was the final damage once all the fires were put out?

Regards,

- Erik

[ChezDaJez]

The first issue is how do the allies get 400+ heavy bombers operating out of Derby in late 42. Clearly impossible but I'll leave that for another thread.

I won't tell you then about the 250+ B17/24s he has at Imphal that have laid waste to every airfield in Burma.

Crazy play? You betcha! What else can one do in the face of a steamroller? Its the only thing I can do to hopefully destroy enough bombers on the ground to delay him. I kept the TF small to limit the DL and the amount of losses I might take. The ships were under cover of rain but the last turn went to overcast. And there was no way I was going to risk my carriers in the face of those bombers.

I haven't seen a single ship of his except for a few transports hugging the south map edge since early June (we have a house rule- no IJN ships within 7 hexes of the map edge except north of Ceylon). So with my ships just sitting in port rusting, I figured I'ld try it.

Next time I try something like this, I will send an old battleship with a couple of MSWs so as to draw the bombers away and leave the cruiser TF free to bombard. There is absolutley nothing else that can be done to stop these bombers. I've virtually destroyed my fighter groups assigned to the Burma theater for no gain. I probably lost over 100 fighters to his 5 or 6 bombers there. Now, granted those were escorted by P-40s and it was those that did most of my fighters in but the alternative was to leave my ground forces open to iron rain.

We are playing with PDU on, I assume he has converted every 2E group into 4Es. The problem isn't with the PDU however, its with the replacement rates of heavy bombers. It would be a lot more understandable if these mass raids were occuring in August 43 rather than August 42.

Chez

[ChezDaJez]

What was the final damage once all the fires were put out?

I haven't received the next turn yet. Probably won't get it until tomorrow. I'll post it then but I don't expect much more damage as the fire levels aren't particularly high.

Chez

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

What was the final damage once all the fires were put out?

I haven't received the next turn yet. Probably won't get it until tomorrow. I'll post it then but I don't expect much more damage as the fire levels aren't particularly high.

Chez

Disagree here, usually SYS rises up for 1 point for every 2-3 pts of fire damage a ship has, so I will bet Haguro will end with more than 20 SYS damage.

As for the B-17E never hitting anything at sea, they hit sometimes in RL (sinking at least one cruiser IIRC). And I wonder if the total of attacks on moving warships by heavy bombers during the whole WWII is not inferior to 400 sorties...

[ChezDaJez]

As for the B-17E never hitting anything at sea, they hit sometimes in RL (sinking at least one cruiser IIRC). And I wonder if the total of attacks on moving warships by heavy bombers during the whole WWII is not inferior to 400 sorties...

The only warship that I know of that was hit by a B-17 was DD that was tied along side another damaged ship. Both were dead in the water. The captian of the destroyer had such complete disregard for the B-17 in the naval attack role that they didn't even attempt to fire at it. Next thing they knew 3 bombs hit the DD sinking it. I believe thise was somewhere in the Solomons.

The B-17 was used extensively in the maritime interdiction role during the Japanese invasion of the Philippines and at Midway. It also flew hundreds of naval patrols loaded with bombs. They did hit a couple of transports that were unloading troops in the PI but again the ships were stopped. If you have any info regarding them hitting a warship at sea, I'ld like to know about it.

Chez

[Rainerle]

Hi,
knowing the altitude would help alot since two things don't fit together, the number of bomb hits and the AA results. If the bombers flew so high that the number of AA results is about right the number of hits is ridiculous high. If they flew so low that the number of hits becomes reasonable then the AA results are a laugh. This should be obvious to everybody.

[tabpub]

ORIGINAL: Rainerle

Hi,
knowing the altitude would help alot since two things don't fit together, the number of bomb hits and the AA results. If the bombers flew so high that the number of AA results is about right the number of hits is ridiculous high. If they flew so low that the number of hits becomes reasonable then the AA results are a laugh. This should be obvious to everybody.

Well, since that task group is putting out about as much flak as ONE North Carolina (ok, add in a Bristol class DD or 2) I would not expect much from the flak. I would presume the bombers were at 6-8 thousand.

[Halsey]

This is all about using the fantasy PDU toggle, nothing else.[;)]

So let's not bring in anything about historical reality.

Except that IJN CA's are armored like BB's in "this game".[;)]