Has anybody here been to Yakusuni Shrine in Tokyo?

[aletoledo]

the victors always write history. If hearing the losing sides unedited version of its point of view can make someone mad, then there are a lot of wars that they shouldn't look into.

two great examples: the american indians really pushed us to the edge, taking all that land for themselves, we really had no choice but to make them share. same goes for california, the Mexicans may have been planning to use it to raid washignton or something anyways.

justifying either the war against the american indians or mexico is pretty hard to do. its wrong to think that the USA is so much purer than everyone else and the only reason it goes to war is to defend the little guy. The Japanese had their reasons for going to war, no matter how history has gotten a spin by the victors.

[bostonrpgmania]

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

I spent a year in Okinawa and Japan. I don't know what they teach in school over there but one thing I can tell you is that the whole 365 days I was over there not one Japanese showed me anything but politness and respect. I was lost at a bus station one night and this one elderly gentleman who was obviously alive during WW2 spent his time making sure I got to the right bus and we didn't know a word of each others languages. He even waved to me as I got on the bus. I think that in itself says something...[:-]

I know..I have many good Japanese friends
Met individually, they are one of the most polite gentlemen in the world. Collectively, it could be a very different story and some are very worried abuot
recent rising twisted nationalism in Japan Those Samuria movies may gave us some impression about the country but what they have done to their neighbors in the history should be taught as they are to the next generation (see thread in the general forum). But still, Japanes gov supports textbook that twist and distort the fact.


You will be surprised to know how they discriminated students of Asian countries that drove some of them to suicide themselves..How can this be consistent with so gentle Japanse we encounter? I dont know....

[paladin333]

to bostonrpgmania
You making false statements about all that crude stuff.
There is no sources that are pointing or support statement about sex slaves or massacre of Chinese civilians
by Japanese army. Or and please dont say that your source is "Nannking Massacres". [:D]

[TulliusDetritus]

Gunner, your post is possibly the most revolting and nasty message I have ever read here. It is called "fascist revisionism". What's next? "Holocaust was fabricated as well"? [:@]

The japanese atrocities were fabricated by the "winners"? In what planet are you living? Germany did admit their atrocities long time ago (they were forced to, by the way)... MacArthur just didn't do his job in Japan [;)]

Chinese are right: Japan must not have that seat on the UN as long as they don't admit openly their many savage atrocities. As for Kuril islands... Japanese territory? My a**. They belong to Ainus people (second-class citizens in Japan, so pay attention) [:D]

[aletoledo]

Chinese are right: Japan must not have that seat on the UN as long as they don't admit openly their many savage atrocities. As for Kuril islands... Japanese territory? My a**. They belong to Ainus people (second-class citizens in Japan, so pay attention)

are you saying that in order to be part of the UN a country must humble its self before the world? did the USA, Engand or Russia do this? why must one country "repent for its sins" to gain a seat and not every country?

ohh thats right they lost. I guess it makes sense then.

[TulliusDetritus]

I am talking about the "permanent" seat. There are 5: USA, UK, France, Russia and China [;)]

[testarossa]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
I am talking about the "permanent" seat. There are 5: USA, UK, France, Russia and China [;)]

I think they should expel France and let Japan in. oh wait!!! All five have nukes. Therefore they don't need anyone else who doesn't have "oratio ultima huius regis".

[aletoledo]

I am talking about the "permanent" seat. There are 5: USA, UK, France, Russia and China

but all these countries have committed atrocities at one time or another, therefore they shouldn't have their "permanent" seats either. they are there because they are the winners of ww2 (though not 100% on why china is there).

[TulliusDetritus]

Good point, Aletoledo... but you are missing my issue [:D] Gunner was refuting the japanese atrocities on WW2. That is my issue.

[ChezDaJez]

I spent a year in Okinawa and Japan. I don't know what they teach in school over there but one thing I can tell you is that the whole 365 days I was over there not one Japanese showed me anything but politness and respect. I was lost at a bus station one night and this one elderly gentleman who was obviously alive during WW2 spent his time making sure I got to the right bus and we didn't know a word of each others languages. He even waved to me as I got on the bus. I think that in itself says something...

I echo your sentiments. I also spent a lot of time in Japan while deployed to Kadena, Atsugi or Misawa. Seldom did I ever encounter any attitude approaching disrespect from the Japanese people, especially those 40 years and older. All it took was to show a little respect and politeness and it was returned tenfold. Only in certain parts of the entertainment industry did I see anything approaching xenophobia with "No foreigners" signs prominently displayed.

I know there are many in Japan who want to rewrite the history books but I truely don't believe that they represent the views of the majority of the Japanese people; the same as the KKK, Aryan Nation and other skinhead groups don't represent the views of mainstream America.

Chez

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

When I got to reading the plaques describing the conflict, I immediately saw how their perspective on the war was so different from ours.

I would be cautious about reading too much into the "Japanese perspective of the war" based on what is presented in Yakusuni. It is a private shrine, and controversial, even in Japan.

Similarly, many (most?) modern Japanese do believe that their country was the wrongful aggressor in WWII. A great deal of attention is paid internationally to those nationalists who don't think so. For example, one of the latest international flaps was over a schoolbook that white-washed Japan's WWII atrocities -- but fewer than 1% of Japan's schoolchildren were in districts that approved the book.

I once worked with a Japanese woman who once brought up PH on her own as being an embarrassment for her. Sounds like the Yakusuni shrine might be somewhat like the KKK having a shrine to commemorate those memebers who fought the Equal Rights movement--in so far as the KKK would have the "minority" (please excuse the pun) view of events here in the US. Thus to call that the Japanese perspective sounds like maybe a Japanese person visiting a Skinhead rally in the US and coming back to Japan to tell all his or her friends that Americans are all white-supremacists. I've never been to Japan though so I'm not familiar with what the prevailing attitude is there. [8|]

Gary

EDIT: Just saw ChezDaJez's post above. Well stated. Didn't mean to parrot it. [:)]

[paladin333]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Gunner, your post is possibly the most revolting and nasty message I have ever read here. It is called "fascist revisionism". What's next? "Holocaust was fabricated as well"? [:@]

The japanese atrocities were fabricated by the "winners"? In what planet are you living? Germany did admit their atrocities long time ago (they were forced to, by the way)... MacArthur just didn't do his job in Japan [;)]

Chinese are right: Japan must not have that seat on the UN as long as they don't admit openly their many savage atrocities. As for Kuril islands... Japanese territory? My a**. They belong to Ainus people (second-class citizens in Japan, so pay attention) [:D]

Hello. Nice to meet you.
First of all. good job. You knew your homework. When you want to beat someone one the board say that he is a nazi or fashist or revisionist and so on. Good shoot! [:D]
My gradfather was killed in concentration camp. So dont say such a thing to me. And to other people too, before hearing some background information.

All I sad is that all that sex slave's "problem" and massacress by Japanese Army doesnt have evidence. By the way Baatan march has it.
All that so called sex slave's were young women working as official prostitutes for IJA. They were payed alot for local standarts. The question is who made them to do such a thing. The answere is most of them were working because their family enforced them to do it.
Such practice is still alive in China, Filiphine, Vietnam, Indonesia even today. Farmers "sells" their children to bordels, its crude thing. But this is the our world.
Othere things like japanese soldiers cutting down 100 heads of chinese with samurai sword is also same BS. It just impossible. Samurai changed their sword after 4-5 cuts. Dont watch "Kill Bill" too much. [:D]

MacArthur just didn't do his job in Japan
Hehe, read about MacArthur and you understand why he didnt do it. [:D] That was a big business...

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: gunner333

My gradfather was killed in concentration camp. So dont say such a thing to me. And to other people too, before hearing some background information.

Having relatives who were victims in ones family doesn't necessarily preclude one from being a "facist" or "nazi". I know very little about you so I couldn't say one way or the other. I would only advise not to take too much sanctuary in it or take it too much for granted. Some say Israel uses the holocaust as a crutch whenever it is addressed for its behavior toward Palestinians.

Gary

EDIT: Besides, I don't think he called you a "facist" personally, only that what you were engaging in as "fascist revisionism".

[paladin333]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: gunner333

My gradfather was killed in concentration camp. So dont say such a thing to me. And to other people too, before hearing some background information.

Having relatives who were victims in ones family doesn't necessarily preclude one from being a "facist" or "nazi". I know very little about you so I couldn't say one way or the other. I would only advise not to take too much sanctuary in it or take it too much for granted. Some say Israel uses the holocaust as a crutch whenever it is addressed for its behavior toward Palestinians.

Gary

EDIT: Besides, I don't think he called you a "facist" personally, only that what you were engaging in as "fascist revisionism".

Anyway, if we came to such terms. The only one that describes that guy is a "communistic revanchist". Pekin use all its media to show the "evil Japan" because its the only way to make people inside not to think about democracy. Pekin makes the enemy and tries to build some nationalism, too bad they will not successed. Tiananmen Square's democracy will prevail!

[TulliusDetritus]

Gunner, I should have guessed it... So you admit the atrocities towards the allied soldiers... but of course the untermenschen exagerate (the chinese -or would you prefer to use the term "chink"? ). Are you sure sources do not exist? 100% sure? Well, then I have to be living in another planet... because I even saw -in reportages- old japanese soldiers admiting those massacres... er... The Rape of Nanking... But you may say this is biased, of course: "actors" paid by Beijing maybe?

My question remains: in what planet are you living? Did you know that in Germany you can't say "german atrocities were a big lie, exageration"? It is a crime! An insult to the victims.

As for your pathetic argument concerning the "sex slaves". Ok, imagine this: the Iraqi government kidnaps thousands of ladies and says to the Pentagon: "your soldiers may 'use' them"... This would not be a rape?

Some people are starting to forget the Nuremberg Trials. Oh well... Asia has to be somehow different [:(]

[EDIT: oh, and you didn't know that "WW2 revisionism" is basically a fascist doctrine? [X(] ]

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: aletoledo

the victors always write history. If hearing the losing sides unedited version of its point of view can make someone mad, then there are a lot of wars that they shouldn't look into.

two great examples: the american indians really pushed us to the edge, taking all that land for themselves, we really had no choice but to make them share. same goes for california, the Mexicans may have been planning to use it to raid washignton or something anyways.

justifying either the war against the american indians or mexico is pretty hard to do. its wrong to think that the USA is so much purer than everyone else and the only reason it goes to war is to defend the little guy. The Japanese had their reasons for going to war, no matter how history has gotten a spin by the victors.

I believe the point of the arguments taking place is that the Japanese are not only refusing to admit their part in the attrocities of WW II and the China War...., but actively trying to re-write history for their education system. I'm not going to defend US vs Native Americans relations...., but the realities of the story are at least public record and taught in schools. As for US-Mexican relations, it was more a matter of two colonial powers squabbling over who would persecute which group of Native Americans.

Japanese activities in China and during the Pacific War were barbaric. Re-writing their history to prove that all those Chinese threw themselves on swords and bayonets, and volunteered to let the Japanese perform medical experiments on them; that the US fleet at Pearl harbor snuk up on an unsuspecting Kido Butai and sucked up all it's bombs and torpedoes, that Changi and the Burma RR work/death camps didn't exist is beyond the pale. Korea "enjoyed" the "benifits" of "enlightened" Japanese rule for 40 years. If you want a really unbiased opinion of the Japanese, ask a 90-year old Korean. Pretending it didn't happen is an insult to millions of Japanese victims, and an abomination to the remants of their families.

[aletoledo]

I agree Mike, they shouldn't rewrite history to pick and choose what details are told or to put a spin to it. history should just be pure.

I'm mostly surprised that someone from this community (which I consider head and shoulders above the general population on its history knowledge), would get angry that one of our war time opponents should have some natioanl pride and try to generate some national patriotism.

the provebial straw that broke the camels back for the original poster was the mural of a zero shooting down a wildcat. I highly doubt they would have paid an artist to draw a mural of a hellcat shooting down their family members!

My whole point is that every nation does bad things in war and every nation feels they are in the right and have a divine power on their side. we as better educated individuals in ww2 history, should be more tolerant of alternative viewpoints. thats not to say we should agree with silly things like denying the holocaust, but we shouldn't think the allies were purely innocent either. I firmly believe that the allies were trying to exclude or marginalize japan as a world power.

[Nikademus]

Only in certain parts of the entertainment industry did I see anything approaching xenophobia with "No foreigners" signs prominently displayed.

Thats odd. Why is that do you think? From what i've seen the Japanese cant get enough of Western style entertainment.

Attrocities -

The Nanking massacre has received much downplay in certain right wing Japanese circles. Japanese elements arn't denying it out wholesale but have tried to state that the numbers killed were very low. One Japanese author claimed that no more than 38,000 to 42,000 were killed.
A Chinese estimate was as high as 430,000 while IMTFE judges concluded a figure of around 260,000.

Iris Chang's book has come under attack, i went to at least one website that did a good job of skewering her. Reminded me of some similar type attacks i've seen here whenever US/Japanese equipment are discussed. Having read the book...if even half of stories of attrocities are true....well its not a pretty picture. Based on what i've read about Japanese views towards the chinese, and particularily chinese soldiers....and comparing that to what Allied PoW's faced, i dont have a serious problem believing that Japanese army troops executed disarmed/surrendered Chinese peasant soliders. What was done to the civilians of Nanking.....well it went far beyond the theory of the younger brother needing to teach the older brother a lesson about toughening themselves up to face the West. There was an effect there, similar in effect to newbies who came to Vietnam. Some Japanese soldiers and officers who came to China were quite intimidated by the hardness and attitude that emenated from the 'veterans' who'd spent extended time there.

I'm not comparing Vietnam to China in terms of mass slaughter....only in trying to understand the human psyche.....after a while you start to see everyone as a suspect, as a potential enemy of guerilla fighter. The eventual de-humanizing effect such conditions can have on soldiers is documented. What happened at Nanking if again, even half true, amounted to a sort of blood rage that went on for weeks. It may be the ultimate example of the de-humanizing effect of war coupled with an indifferent government policy.

[ChezDaJez]

Thats odd. Why is that do you think? From what i've seen the Japanese cant get enough of Western style entertainment

I probably should have said "only in the MALE entertainment business." Western women are highly desird but Japanese males don't wish to share their fantasies with western males. Many Japanese bath houses also exclude foreigners.

The Japanese have always been very xenophobic. I'm not sure what the roots of this are but it is prevalent and quite evident, especially in the smaller towns and cities. This doesn't mean that they are rude or unfriendly to foreigners, just that they prefer to exclude foreigners from certain parts of their society and culture.

I'm not comparing Vietnam to China in terms of mass slaughter....only in trying to understand the human psyche.....after a while you start to see everyone as a suspect, as a potential enemy of guerilla fighter. The eventual de-humanizing effect such conditions can have on soldiers is documented. What happened at Nanking if again, even half true, amounted to a sort of blood rage that went on for weeks. It may be the ultimate example of the de-humanizing effect of war coupled with an indifferent government policy.

No nation is immune to these effects. Any nation engaging in war often has its soldiers perform acts that can only be described as barbaric due to the raw emotions brought to the surface by war. The difference is whether these acts stem from some official or unofficial policy. With the Nazis, it was an official policy. With the Japanese, I feel it was more an unofficial policy. Unit 731 is the only exception I know of and even then I'm not sure that the Japanese high command knew the particulars for its reason for being, not that they would have stopped it had they did indeed known. This is not to diminish or reduce the effects of these unofficial acts as opposed to official. Simply that inhumane acts committed by small groups of individuals can often grow into widespread barbarism and become unofficial policy quite quickly if immediate steps aren't taken to stop it.

Chez

[Nikademus]

ah......yes. When you said "entertainment" industry for some reason i just thought of G rated entertain such as Hai Hai Puffy Yamanumi or something like that. [:'(]

For more adult entertainment....yes i could understand the closed-ness of the more er...traditional Japanese night time entertainments....[:D]