A Question for WitP Japanese Experts

[GaryChildress]

Every turn in which a factory expands, supplies are eaten up by 1000 per 1 point of increase in production capacity (IIRC).

Therefore, I could take three factories at 5 production each and expand all three of them to (5)5 each. Or I could take one factory at 15 production and expand it to (15)15. In both cases production would be doubled from 15 to 30 points and 15000 supply points would be consumed in the total process.

Obviously the first scenario would eat up a lot of supply points very quickly to double production very quickly from 15 to 30. (Supplies would effectively be eaten up and expansion would occur at 3 times the rate of the second scenario)

The second scenario would use less supply points per turn to achieve the same doubling of production, however, it would take longer to double production capacity from 15 to 30 points. (effectively 3 times longer)

Sooo....my question is: as Japanese, setting up on the first turn of a non-historical start, which would be the better move: 1) expanding many factories to quickly increase production to a certain level or 2) expanding only one or a few factories to slowly increase production to roughly the same level?

My guess would be scenario #2 since supplies will be limited to the Japanese, especially until resources begin flowing from SRA. I assume there is no real rush to increase production capacity to start off with. On the other hand expanding a few large industrial centers versus many small ones would effectively be putting all ones "eggs in one basket" for the day Allied bombers come knocking on the door.

I suppose the best strategy from the scenarios above would therefore be to slowly expand 3 factories to (5)5 each, turning off expansion on the others until the first has expanded fully and then resuming on the next factory rather than slowly expand 1 factory to (15)15?

[&:]

Gary

[String]

I'd suggest slow expansion early game, atleast before you get all of those SRA resource locations that produce supply on their own (I can hear certain individuals screaming over it already)

After that you can crank up expansion, but be sure you don't overexpand

[Nikademus]

Expand very slowly (if at all) during the 1st phase of the war. Japan needs all the supply and fuel it can muster (or capture) to ensure that ample reserves can be brought to the front. I experienced shortages of supply in my last (current) outing as Japan and that was with not messing with production until the 1st and 2nd operational phases were completed.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Expand very slowly (if at all) during the 1st phase of the war. Japan needs all the supply and fuel it can muster (or capture) to ensure that ample reserves can be brought to the front. I experienced shortages of supply in my last (current) outing as Japan and that was with not messing with production until the 1st and 2nd operational phases were completed.

When you say "unitl the 1st and 2nd operational phases" of your game, what period of time are we talking about here, weeks, months? [&:]

Gary

[Nikademus]

sorry. the 1st and 2nd operational phases were Japan's two step operational battle plan for the conquest of the SRA. Phase 1 covered the initial series of landings at Malaya and PI's and other locations. The 2nd phase generally covers the invasions of Sumatra and Java. (Don't forget Burma unless one isn't interested in that area)

Included in these objectives i lump the establishement of Japan's outer defence perimeter. (Rabaul, upper Solomons....Tarawa...northern New Gunuea etc etc)

Once these objectives are completed, unless the Japan player keeps on trucking, the slow down of operations will allow supply dumps and fuel reserves to build up in Japan allowing them to better absorb the industry changes.

Personally, i don't mess much with production. I'll retire the Nate and G3M lines of course....but i keep my expansions to a a minimum. I do expand Nakajama engines as they tend to come up in short supply.

[Mike Solli]

I think that many players make the mistake of expanding Japanese HI. There's a pile of resources and oil in Japan initially, but it'll vanish over time. Even after taking the SRA, I don't believe the increase warrants increasing HI production. I think it'll just use up the resources and oil that much faster (even with the increase). I suspect that, by 1944, you'll run out. If that is true, all you did is to use extra supply to produce HI earlier. I have many other uses for that supply.

[jwilkerson]

I guess my answer is a little different - so Ill toss it in.

Manage your reserves.

Build up a reserve of HI and oil and resources. And of course supply in the home islands as well.

If my first several games I burned myself by expanding too quickly - but that was before I learned how to manage my reserves. Now I can expand quite a bit early on and not run out of anything.

But watch your reserves every day. Ideally you want all of them to be slightly climbing - this way you know you haven't stepped across the edge .. and you can try another small increment of pressure without the whole house falling in. THe larger your reserves the faster you can expand without risk. In fact if your reserves are too high .. you have probably shorted yourself some on map widgets !

But small changes are better than huge changes in general - though once you have a "feel" for your reserves and the changes you have made - you are better able to judge how much change you can absorb.

So to your original question - if you have use for a lot of capacity immediately - then expanding several factories will get you there - of course you will be spending more supply - but if you've managed your reserves then you have it. So when I am in a hurry for something ... I will change ( engines or aircraft ) or expand ( engines, aircraft, HI ) rapidly at multiple locations. But if I am not in a hurry then I will do at less locations - by only pushing as hard as you need to - you save some reserves in case you have a real emergency.

In my most advanced game ... Oct 43 ... I have about 700,000 HI in reserve and slightly climbing .. with about 1.9 Oil and slightly climbing and about 1.0 resources which is not climbing. And I have several cities in Home Islands witth 400k or more supply. I am bringing back everything I can in terms of resources but I have built up air and naval ( and HI ) production right to the edge of my ability to bring in resources, they are my bottleneck. If I expand any more my resource reserve will go down. And hence any expansion would be very temporary would cost a pile of supply and would be a mistake. But I know I am at my edge - so I will stay there as long as I can - and when my resource reserve starts going down ( because the allies have bombed the resource point generators ) then I will start to shut down my HI production and my HI eaters. But I will have a pretty hefty HI reserve to last even when my resource and oil imports are a trickle - this is the goal - last as long as possible.

[BlackVoid]

Nice post jwilkerson I agree.

Grab a notebook and each or every 2nd turn write in your pool levels. You may also use an Excel or Open Office table if you have a laptop nearby. Then you can even have charts and graphs of your economy! Watch the levels and you will get a feel on it in a few feeks gametime.

Watch your levels every day and then decide. Personally I would increase the production of all front line airplane types. Zero and Betty especially. Also search planes, you can never have enough. Also make sure to stop production on ships that you do not need in a hurry - you don't need that many transports that fast.

[John III]

Great notes ont he last two posts! In my first PBEM with Moses, I expanded TOO rapidly and got into deep trouble with production. Things basically froze for about 3 months. As the Japanese, you CANNOT let that happen! In my second PBEM with Wolfpack, I have expanded my industry much more gradually. We are in mid-March and my resource pool is actually gaining steam! I've been able to expand and now that the resources are pouring in, I can really start to speed-up my work. Those are my .02!

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
In my most advanced game ... Oct 43 ... I have about 700,000 HI in reserve and slightly climbing .. with about 1.9 Oil and slightly climbing and about 1.0 resources which is not climbing.

I have a question. Does this mean that you have fewer resource centres than HI centres, and thus have a resources shortfall? Even with the capture of the DEI etc.?

Andrew

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
In my most advanced game ... Oct 43 ... I have about 700,000 HI in reserve and slightly climbing .. with about 1.9 Oil and slightly climbing and about 1.0 resources which is not climbing.

I have a question. Does this mean that you have fewer resource centres than HI centres, and thus have a resources shortfall? Even with the capture of the DEI etc.?

Andrew

It means that there are fewer resource points generated than that required by the HI level - which I did increase BTW. Also a number of resource point generators were bombed or otherwise destroyed during the capture of DEI and never repaired.

[Mynok]

Just remember that Japan needs to do three things at the start:

1) Stop production of useless planes.
2) Expand armaments.
3) Accelerate carriers.

Halt factories that are building crap and let them auto-upgrade. If they don't do that, then keep them halted until May or June, then see about converting them to something useful.

Keep close tabs on your naval shipyard points. Halt the Shinano and accelerate all but the Taiho CV.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Just remember that Japan needs to do three things at the start:

1) Stop production of useless planes.
2) Expand armaments.
3) Accelerate carriers.

Halt factories that are building crap and let them auto-upgrade. If they don't do that, then keep them halted until May or June, then see about converting them to something useful.

Keep close tabs on your naval shipyard points. Halt the Shinano and accelerate all but the Taiho CV.

Thanks Mynok, sounds like some very sound advice. I've heard others say to halt Shinano however the Taiho looks like a pretty good ship as far as a/c compiment. Why not accelerate it too? Is it because the ship has such a high build rate which I assume would eat up significantly more ship building resources?

Gary

[ChezDaJez]

I agree with Nik. Expand only what you absolutely need and do it slowly. It is too easy to run Japan out of supply early in the game, especially if you haven't conquered the SRA yet.

Even after incorporating the SRA, expand only those industries that you absolutely need to and still go slowly. IMO, it is far better to have several small industries than one large one. A large one becomes too attractive a target later in the war.

Chez

[Charles2222]

I'm not sure I understand the original question. I know Gary is using an example when he talks of increasing 15 points of factories, but if he is also making that as a real situation, just on that level, not higher, what earthly difference could it make? It's only when you get to higher amounts that it matters, IMO.

So how long does it take for the 15pt factory to get to 30? Is it 15 days? 30 days? I never figured that out, but it did seem like at least a 75% repair rate just from general observance of sufficiently supplied bases with repairs on. If it is 15 days, again, what difference could it make, it's just too small an amount to matter. If you're talking about a base with only 20,000 supply, and for some reason, chiefly later in the game, you don't think you can get supply up three different bases with the separate 5,000 improvement waiting, there in less than 10 days, then the slower method is preferable I suppose. Even then, the supply used is the same, but with one small caveat. It takes more shipping, hence more supply, usually, to move sufficient supply to three bases as opposed to one.

The only other reason I can think of using the slower method would be if you are really in some state of confusion and aren't sure that the attempts to get the three bases the sufficient supply would be a waste. Other than those considerations, and those are excessively minor if you're talking the very early war, I can't see how 15,000 spent is any different one way or the other. Seems to quicker you have the improvements the better.

There is also another alternative, though again, slight. Instead of three 5 factory improvements at 3 different bases, you could do 2 5pt ones and raise the 15pt factory both. You could stop the big site after it raised 5pts, while the other two would go on for the duration. The advantage here is plain. Not only is that third 5pt base left unmolested, but your 15pt one is now 20. thereby freeing the 15pt one up, should it be turned back on for repair later, to jump only 10pts the next time (since the 15pt upgrade will have 10pts still pending).

When you think about it, you could take several of the large factories you might want improving, and jack them up to their maximum from the start. Why? Because this way you can incrementally improve them if you want. I know I used to not touch the big ones, but it can come in pretty handy, since you can let it improve just one point out of the hundreds it may be set up for, if you want that. That way you're not stuck looking at some imposing 130pt upgrade and thinking you can't use it because it's too large. If everyone bumps all their factories to 5's or 10's, as a lot of people seem to, then it's the only way you're going to get smaller improvements than 5 or 10 at a whack. But of course there's more micromanagement to offset that.

[Mynok]

Is it because the ship (Taiho) has such a high build rate which I assume would eat up significantly more ship building resources?

Sorry I didn't get back sooner.

Yes, I don't accelerate Taiho until I've received the Junyo and Hiyo, strictly due to the cost. Taiho is an ok ship, but I would rather start accelerating two Unryu class ships from the start for that cost. Once the Hiyo and Junyo are in, I can accelerate the Taiho.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Is it because the ship (Taiho) has such a high build rate which I assume would eat up significantly more ship building resources?

Sorry I didn't get back sooner.

Yes, I don't accelerate Taiho until I've received the Junyo and Hiyo, strictly due to the cost. Taiho is an ok ship, but I would rather start accelerating two Unryu class ships from the start for that cost. Once the Hiyo and Junyo are in, I can accelerate the Taiho.

Personally, I accelerate the Hiyo and Junyo only. By the time the rest come in (even accelerated) its too late to use them. I accelerate the Yamato and Mushashi (1 at a time of course). I get far more use out of them than I would the late war carriers.

[Milman]

ORIGINAL: Mynok



2) Expand armaments.

How much armaments factory in PBEM's .