Problems with CV's

Share your gameplay tips, secret tactics and fabulous strategies with fellow gamers.

Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami

User avatar
ADavidB
Posts: 2464
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by ADavidB »

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
Why does this happen. I know that my CV's were not overloaded, there was still room in the plane capacity. Have you had similar experiences?

Your problem MIGHT be the infamous "not enough pilots" bug, which still exists (although there are claims it is fixed in 1.7xx patch - but we'll see).

If your carriers (especially, but also other air units) do not have AT LEAST the same number of pilots as aircraft, they might not fly at all. I.e. - if your carriers fighter squadrons had 24 planes, but only 23 pilots - they might not (?probably) won't fly. Ditto for your dive bombers and torpedo planes. You can easily lose pilots from ops, have a plane replaced, and bingo - nobody flies.[:(]

The only way i KNOW to get around this is to check each and every aircraft squadron every turn to make sure they have enough pilots, otherwise they might not fly - and you will notice it (probably) only when something critical happens - like when carriers are supposed to attack - or defend. I suspect since nobody flew attack missions, nobody much flew CAP, either. Scratch three carriers.[X(]

This checking all of this is a huge time sink.[:(][>:]

Ah, good point. I had forgotten about that. I'm paranoid and check all my air units each turn, so I've gotten used to "filling-in" pilots that disappear. That is a big potential contributor too.

But never-the-less, even if all air units had full pilot quotas, a 1942 attack by US carriers on Japanese carriers is always a very risky thing in this game and will rarely turn in the US favor, for all the reasons that we mentioned above.

Dave Baranyi
User avatar
Dereck
Posts: 3262
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:43 pm
Location: Romulus, MI

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by Dereck »

ORIGINAL: ADavidB
The stuff that happens in the game though (units refusing to fly) is way beyond the pale of what went on historically.

I'm seeing that a lot more in my v1.602 game that I ever remember seeing it in earlier versions of the game. Most turns nowadays Tophat and I get off less than a dozen air missions between the two of us over the entire map...[X(]


I'm suspicious that the conditions for launching air attacks were "tweaked" in the v1.50 and onwards patches in response to the complaints about the game moving "too fast".

Dave Baranyi

Which, frankly, pardon my language, pisses me off. I'm playing against the AI and yet I have to put up with the whining and crying of PBEMers who do things that are ahistorical and then cry and complain about the outcome and manage to get changes put through which end up affecting someone like me who plays within reason against the AI.

This is not the game I bought a year ago. I LIKED that game and I've seen it change from one I bought and liked to one that I don't like anymore. I try and change things in the editor (like making bombs more effective to counter the nerfing done to bombing) only to see changes HARDCODED that would negate anything I've done in my editor!! If PBEMers think bombing accuracy, etc is too accurate then it's about time THEY change things in their editors and let people like me who think the game is working fine alone.

I'd love to still be playing version 1.3 (which I liked and saw no problems with) but because of pilot replacement/leader bugs I was forced to upgrade and now my game is completely hosed in my opinion.
PO2 US Navy (1980-1986);
USS Midway CV-41 (1981-1984)
Whidbey Island, WA (1984-1986)
Naval Reserve (1986-1992)
User avatar
BlackSunshine
Posts: 363
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2002 12:16 pm

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by BlackSunshine »

Good question to the thread starter. I have wondered this myself, and have seen it hinted at in a few threads after some searching.

I also found through some searching that having 3 seperate CV task forces of 1CV each in the same hex will optimize your strike potential. Is this still the case?
User avatar
Feinder
Posts: 7187
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:33 pm
Location: Land o' Lakes, FL

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by Feinder »

By splitting the CVs into separate TFs it means

a. There is no coordination penalty. The individual CV TFs will launch smaller, but coordinated strikes.

b. All in the same hex, you get all the CAP combined. So if a lone CV TF gets attacked, it still gets all 80 fighters from all from the separate TFs.

c. It also gives the enemy multiple TFs attack. If KB hits your TF with 3 CVs, they're all going be sunk. But 3 CVs in 3 TFs, means that KB will launch a mega-strike vs. one of the TFs (or maybe two). Those two TFs will gain the benefit of all the fighters on CAP (same hex), and then get clobbed by whatever bombers get thru. But at least you'll have one or two CVs left afterwards.

-F-
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me

Image
User avatar
Ron Saueracker
Posts: 10967
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:00 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: BlackSunshine

Good question to the thread starter. I have wondered this myself, and have seen it hinted at in a few threads after some searching.

I also found through some searching that having 3 seperate CV task forces of 1CV each in the same hex will optimize your strike potential. Is this still the case?

Apparently the strike potential IS improved by both quantity of flying aircraft and cohesion of flying aircaft if CVs are not in the same TF. I can't figure out what causes this or why the design stipulates this.

Having seperate CV TFs just grabs the UBER CAP issue by the horns too. The seperate CVs still manage to keep up the full CAP (CAP would be the same if all CVs were in the same TF but for some reason strikes are arbitrarily nerfed) and the IJ coordinated strikes are negated as they split up BEFORE CAP resolution and attack each TF! Weird and I still don't understand the reasoning.
Image

Image

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
User avatar
niceguy2005
Posts: 12522
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:53 pm
Location: Super secret hidden base

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by niceguy2005 »

ORIGINAL: DFalcon

ORIGINAL: Poku

I am REALLY frustrated. I am playing in American side. I have a strong CV TF near New Guinea (3 CV's) and nice Jap CV TF nearby. My TF sends only 5 fighters, 3 DB's and 2 TB's to attac japs, and what happens? Nothing!!! But, as japan (AI) sends 56 Zeros, 40 DB's and 40 TB's, all my three CV's are sunk. I had CAP's in air etc. Aargh. Why does this happen. I know that my CV's were not overloaded, there was still room in the plane capacity. Have you had similar experiences?

What happened here goes beyond the coordination penalty.

There are several things that will interfere with a strike. You might have used up too many OPs moving, a large portion of your strike might have been unable to find the target, you may have been hit with less pilots than planes bug, or a combination of those factors.

I second DFalcon's assessment. I don't think that this is just a coordination problem. You may have had other issues like lack of AIR ops points or weather problems.

Image
Attachments
blackie.gif
blackie.gif (29.15 KiB) Viewed 442 times
Image
Artwork graciously provided by Dixie
User avatar
ADavidB
Posts: 2464
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by ADavidB »

ORIGINAL: BlackSunshine

Good question to the thread starter. I have wondered this myself, and have seen it hinted at in a few threads after some searching.

I also found through some searching that having 3 seperate CV task forces of 1CV each in the same hex will optimize your strike potential. Is this still the case?

It will improve your strike potential. However, keep in mind that there are a lot of factors weighing against successful Allied naval air attacks on Japanese carriers in 1942. Just because you get better attacks off, doesn't mean that you will get the success that you need. Unless you are very, very close you won't have torpedo planes flying before you get Avengers, and if your Dauntlesses fly with 500 lb bombs they won't scratch the Japanese fleet carriers because of their armored decks. So you can have everything "working" and still have your carriers devastated.

You might get "lucky", but do you really want to risk your carriers on "luck" or do you want to try to use them to their full potential. Come September 1942, when you have Avengers and 36-plane fighter units on your carriers, wouldn't you rather have six carriers instead of only a couple?

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi
User avatar
Ron Saueracker
Posts: 10967
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:00 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: ADavidB
ORIGINAL: BlackSunshine

Good question to the thread starter. I have wondered this myself, and have seen it hinted at in a few threads after some searching.

I also found through some searching that having 3 seperate CV task forces of 1CV each in the same hex will optimize your strike potential. Is this still the case?

It will improve your strike potential. However, keep in mind that there are a lot of factors weighing against successful Allied naval air attacks on Japanese carriers in 1942. Just because you get better attacks off, doesn't mean that you will get the success that you need. Unless you are very, very close you won't have torpedo planes flying before you get Avengers, and if your Dauntlesses fly with 500 lb bombs they won't scratch the Japanese fleet carriers because of their armored decks. So you can have everything "working" and still have your carriers devastated.

You might get "lucky", but do you really want to risk your carriers on "luck" or do you want to try to use them to their full potential. Come September 1942, when you have Avengers and 36-plane fighter units on your carriers, wouldn't you rather have six carriers instead of only a couple?

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi
I ditched the BS "armoured decks" quandry. I arbitrarily halved the armour rating to make the decks vulnerable to 500lb and 250kg bombs. What is more important? Vulnerability of wooden decked CVs or keeping the maximum deck armour over the machinery and magazines by allowing this wooden deck armor because of the 1982 damage model? I figure if the damage model can't handle the actual armour thickness, the actual thickness has got to go.
Image

Image

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
User avatar
testarossa
Posts: 958
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by testarossa »

ORIGINAL: dereck
I try and change things in the editor (like making bombs more effective to counter the nerfing done to bombing) only to see changes HARDCODED that would negate anything I've done in my editor!! .

Not for the sake of argument but as an advice on editor.

To improve effect against land targets bombload needs to be changed. For B-24 from 8000 to 16000 for example or any other number until you get results you desire.

To make LB deadly ship-killers change device accuracy for 500 lb and 1000lb bomb and increase number of bombs if you wish. If you want some particular aircraft to be a ship-killer (which i wanted to by PB4Y), i created separate 500lb bomb with increased accuracy and put it on PB4Y only.

Ron advised me once to put armoured decks on subs to negate uber-ASW air patrols. It worked. But they fixed air-patrol problem in 1.7xx.[:D]


User avatar
rtrapasso
Posts: 22655
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 4:31 am

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by rtrapasso »

But they fixed air-patrol problem in 1.7xx.

Like they fixed the disappearing units, and the leader bug(s) in 1.40, 1.50, 1.60? [8|]
User avatar
Ron Saueracker
Posts: 10967
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:00 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by Ron Saueracker »

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
But they fixed air-patrol problem in 1.7xx.

Like they fixed the disappearing units, and the leader bug(s) in 1.40, 1.50, 1.60? [8|]

Apples and oranges. Bugs are difficult, booboos just need someone to say "Oops, my bad" and fix it.
Image

Image

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
User avatar
dtravel
Posts: 4533
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:34 pm

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by dtravel »

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
But they fixed air-patrol problem in 1.7xx.

Like they fixed the disappearing units, and the leader bug(s) in 1.40, 1.50, 1.60? [8|]

Apples and oranges. Bugs are difficult, booboos just need someone to say "Oops, my bad" and fix it.

Yes and no. I suspect that it was a fundamental part of the initial design of the game. In order to change that you would have to literally re-write significant parts of the code from scratch.

If A, then B. If B, then C. Etc., etc. until you reach J. But if it turns out that "If A, then K", then you have to re-do everything that follows.
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

Image
Sparrow
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 7:03 pm

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by Sparrow »

G'Day Gentlemen

Newbie here

If I'm reading these threads correctly, you can tweek your game through an editor function ... yes?
Where is this blighter and how do you access it?

I have some ideas I wish to check out down the track once I've put some hours under my training belt.

This is Sparrow [8D]
"That was not necessary"
Guns are a last resort, we're Phantom Agents.
User avatar
Ron Saueracker
Posts: 10967
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:00 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by Ron Saueracker »

Go into the scenario folder and you will see both a data editor and a scenario editor. Big step, Sparrow. Have fun.[8D]
Image

Image

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan
erstad
Posts: 1949
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:40 pm
Location: Midwest USA

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by erstad »

One other possibility I didn't see in this thread is that all of the sorties have been expended (e.g., the carrier is out of ordinance). This is different than ops points.

Open the previous turn, and look at the "MS:" field in the upper left of the task force screen. The number in parentheses is the percentage of sorties remaining; if it's small, then that could well be the problem. Has this carrier TF launched strikes since the last time it resupplied?
spence
Posts: 5421
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:56 am
Location: Vancouver, Washington

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by spence »

I didn't realize that the effect of the CV coordination rule was to BOTH fragment the Allied strikes AND reduce the number of planes even launched. ONLY THE FIRST EFFECT HAS ANY HISTORICAL JUSTIFICATION. THE LATTER IS PURE BOGUS.
I've been reading "Shattered Sword", the new book on the battle of Midway and had reached the conclusion that the CV coordination rule is more or less appropriate in its effects (although I think it ought to be an experience thing for the individual carrier which has nothing to do with the date but rather more with what that carrier has done in the past).

Somehow however it ought to effect Japanese CAP. They had no effective controller for the CAP over KB - each carrier managed its own. "Managed" is something of an overstatement since the officer who "managed" the CAP also oversaw all flight deck operations; depended on lookouts, smoke screens and shell splashes as his sensors and communicated with "his" CAP on the same radio frequency as anybody communicated with any airborne IJN aircraft (CAP, strike and search). Essentially the CAP consisted of a variable number of totally independent 2 or 3 plane shotais each under its own shotai leader. The system worked but just barely so long as the enemy attacked in relatively small numbers from a single direction. The first time it was put to a real test of its effectivenes was approx 1020, 4 June, 1942. BTW, it flunked the test.

The idea of a Fighter Direction Center in a CIC equipped with radar, dedicated communications, and specially trained personnel apparently didn't begin to formulate in the IJNs doctrine until somewhere around late 1944. By then, such thoughts were mostly just something to keep a few extra and shipless officers busy until the surrender.

Incidentally, the idea of a ring defense, such as was always practiced by USN CVTFs was not adopted by the IJN until 1944. At Midway most of KBs DDs were on picket duty 15 km from the carriers. Each carrier had the direct fire support of only 1 DD: its plane guard. Chikuma, Tone, Nagara were relatively nearby but out of effective 25 mm range (approx 8 km). Kirishima and Haruna were at the same distance as the cruisers. Any Japanese ship under attack was supposed to manuever violently to avoid the attack and the spacing between ships was so that would be possible. But such manuevers rendered the fire control solutions for the manuevering ship's heavy AA totally worthless. And to make matters worse, the ammo feed for the 25 mm AA was from 15 round drums, which obviously needed to be changed a lot during an attack. Thus gunners generally only fired one barrel at a time (essentially halving the effective number of guns). In point of fact a Japanese CV TF consisted of something similar to what the Allies have to do in the game only even smaller: just individual CVs and their plane guard DD dealing with whatever gets thru the CAP by themselves.

The game models the evolution of USN carrier doctrine. It essentially doesn't model the IJN doctrine at all with the one exception that it allows multiple carrier TFs to launch well coordinated offensive strikes - something only the Japanese PRACTICED before Pearl Harbor. But defense of the fleet was not well integrated into Japanese doctrine. The continual independent recycling of the CAP by all 4 carriers prevented the spotting of any kind of strike once the Americans were located at Midway. In the account in Shattered Sword, which is incredibly detailed mainly from the Japanese side, I have seemingly "watched" the Japanese defense become more and more unglued as each American squadron goes into the meatgrinder all morning, finally but by now almost inevitably culminating in the attack by the 3 SBD squadrons that destroyed the heart of the KB. Absolutely great book.
User avatar
jwilkerson
Posts: 8241
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
Location: Kansas
Contact:

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by jwilkerson »

doesn't model the IJN doctrine at all with the one exception that it allows multiple carrier TFs to launch well coordinated offensive strikes - something only the Japanese PRACTICED before Pearl Harbor. But defense of the fleet was not well integrated into Japanese doctrine. The continual independent recycling of the CAP by all 4 carriers prevented the spotting of any kind of strike once the Americans were located at Midway. In the account in Shattered Sword, which is incredibly detailed mainly from the Japanese side, I have seemingly "watched" the Japanese defense become more and more unglued as each American squadron goes into the meatgrinder all morning, finally but by now almost inevitably culminating in the attack by the 3 SBD squadrons that destroyed the heart of the KB.

Does this book give credit to Admiral King for giving Genda the idea of pulling of the Japanese carriers together in one TF ? I've seen a quote from Genda, saying he got the idea ( late 1940 ) from watching a news reel of 4 US carriers operating together - which pretty much has to be the manuvers off Panama canal when King was running the carriers and was trying promulgate running them together in one TF.

The USN had debates about single carrier TF versus multiple carrier TF ... both ideas having their proponents .. interestingly before Midway .. King was a proponent of multiple carrier TFs .. after Midway he "ordered" the USN to operate in single carrier TFs with a separate admiral in charge of each. We can speculate that he wanted to avoid a reverse Midway - seeing that massed carriers was a heck of a risk. Between late 42 and mid-43 the debate raged mostly between Ramsey and Sherman commanding Sara and Enterprise respectively. However, the debate was mostly moot at this point due to lack of carriers with which to form multi-carrier TFs. However, by mid-43 with the number of carriers increasing and the AA effectiveness also increasing - the virtually unanimous decision was made to form multi-carrier task forces. Thus finally realising King's pre-war vision of carrier task forces.

Spence and I have been involved in this "debate" from day one of WITP ... and my position is pretty much that tactical organization of the fleet should be up to the players and not hard coded into the game. There are advantages and disadvantages to operating the carriers together or in separate TFs all in the same hex. Unfortunately the game does exactly represent the RL tradeoffs but there are tradeoffs in the game. CAP effectiness being the primary issue - the ability of all CAP to cover everything in the hex with a high probability - minimizes one of the trade offs of operating "separately" ... also the ability to launch strikes which form up and reach the target at the same time, is more difficult when operating separately - another trade off not represented in the game. The only real advantage in the game of putting the carriers in the same TF is slightly less risk that they wander off into the wrong hex during reaction ... and higher AA defense ( Japanese carriers especially have higher AA values than all other IJN ships ).

These thoughts coupled with the "CV Strike coordination" penalty applied to US CVs virtually forces the US player to operate in single CV TFs in 1942 ... increasing to 2 CV TFs in 1943 ... and then the 3-5 CV/CVL TFs from 1944 on ... with as many times as we've heard reasoning about how players should be free to make their own mistakes ... this strike coordination penalty stands out as a gleaming red light asking to get removed one day !

But also having the game offer the correct trade-offs of operating together, versus operating separately and then giving the players the choice would be my preference. And I know I've said all this before - but it has been a while - so here I am saying it again !



WITP Admiral's Edition - Project Lead
War In Spain - Project Lead
spence
Posts: 5421
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:56 am
Location: Vancouver, Washington

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by spence »

In the game, the Japanese should have an advantage in putting together a well coordinated strike package.
They should also suffer a serious degradation in way of defense compared to the USN. With 4 carriers at Midway they managed to get get 42 Zeros into the CAP just before the fatal US uncoordinated strikes arrived (Yorktowns strike was in fact coordinated). But because nobody was in possession of the big picture and thus able to direct the CAP to best advantage the 3 SBD squadrons got a free ride to the heart of the KB. And the KB depended on its CAP more than the USN to ward off enemy a/c. If an enemy a/c got through/avoided the CAP it essentially faced only the flak from the carrier itself with only a tiny bit of help from its plane guard DD. Very much unlike the USN where right from the start an enemy penetrating the CAP had to face the flak from many warships gathered in a tight 4-5000 yd DIAMETER circle around the CV. Just not the same thing.
BTW Shattered Sword is very well documented. The loss of each plane during the battle, oddly enough even more so for the Japanese in fact, is mentioned. Just for fun, I guess I'll mention that against the US VF pilots, the A6M and its pilots did not fare that well at all. When the 42 Zeros more or less got sucked into attacking VT-3 and its six escorting Wildcats (and hence ignoring the 3 SBD squadrons also approaching simultaneously) they lost 5 of their number to 2 of the VF group and didn't even manage to prevent some of VT-3 from launching their torpedos. They certainly demolished VT-3 but the cost was a lot higher than KB could afford.
User avatar
Poku
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:53 am

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by Poku »

Thank you for an understandable explanation Dave!!!
Sometimes I even enjoy of losing
User avatar
John 3rd
Posts: 17760
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:03 pm
Location: La Salle, Colorado

RE: Problems with CV's

Post by John 3rd »

I just spoke about Shattered Sword on the Yamaguchi thread. PEOPLE NEED TO READ THAT BOOK! It really takes to task many false assumptions made about the battle and the Japanese decision process within it.
Image

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Post Reply

Return to “The War Room”