Amateurs!

[sol_invictus]

I'm afraid you wont be able to please those bozos in the big mags no matter what you do, but I support any efforts to make your very detailed games more friendly for a casual crowd. I can almost feel your anguish and pain at trying to create complex and realisticly historical accurate strategy games, yet make a living at the same time. I think that COG while certainly complex, was also somewhat buggy and had a not quite ready for release feel when it was released and this had some negative effects on mag scores. I would suggest that you take all the time you need on the next game and make the changes that will make the game not so much of a chore to learn and you should have a good chance at success. Europa Universalis proves this. You have a potential winning system here that with a little adjustment could bring the desired rewards. Keep the faith and I feel confident that COG will become a cult classic at least and that your next game will make it over the top.

Speaking of which, when might we get a clue about the subject for your next magnum opus? Please let it be either Frederick the Great, Wars of German Unification, or Rise of the Roman Republic.[&o]

[Russian Guard]

I agree completely with this post (#17). I have always campaigned for less transparency in any game system; when all is revealed, the min-max'rs rejoice and calculate every consequence of their actions to it's precise outcome.

Indeed, it becomes a puzzle to figure out and, once the optimal choices are "figured out" the game becomes static/predictable/boring, as everyone plays the same way if you want to play it "smart".

[ericbabe]

ORIGINAL: Russian Guard
I agree completely with this post (#17). I have always campaigned for less transparency in any game system; when all is revealed, the min-max'rs rejoice and calculate every consequence of their actions to it's precise outcome.

Indeed, it becomes a puzzle to figure out and, once the optimal choices are "figured out" the game becomes static/predictable/boring, as everyone plays the same way if you want to play it "smart".

We've foreseen the min/maxing problem and have a couple of mechanisms in mind for making that harder to do....

[ericbabe]

ORIGINAL: Arinvald
I'm afraid you wont be able to please those bozos in the big mags no matter what you do, but I support any efforts to make your very detailed games more friendly for a casual crowd. I can almost feel your anguish and pain at trying to create complex and realisticly historical accurate strategy games, yet make a living at the same time. I think that COG while certainly complex, was also somewhat buggy and had a not quite ready for release feel when it was released and this had some negative effects on mag scores. I would suggest that you take all the time you need on the next game and make the changes that will make the game not so much of a chore to learn and you should have a good chance at success. Europa Universalis proves this. You have a potential winning system here that with a little adjustment could bring the desired rewards. Keep the faith and I feel confident that COG will become a cult classic at least and that your next game will make it over the top.

Speaking of which, when might we get a clue about the subject for your next magnum opus? Please let it be either Frederick the Great, Wars of German Unification, or Rise of the Roman Republic.[&o]

Our numerical ratings weren't actually that bad, it was more the mocking tone that the reviews took with COG has hurt distribution. There were some unfortunate bugs in 1.0 that were introduced late in the development process, and unfortunately both reviews were written based on 1.0. But one might point out that 1.0 versions of some Paradox games aren't the most bug-free things, so I don't think that this was the material problem for the reviewers (actually, I don't know how well Paradox games typically rate in, say, CGW...)

Hopefully, if we address some of the substantial points raised by the reviewers (and some of the points they raised were reasonable critiques...), maybe add different beginner/advanced rules, we can get slightly more respect in the mainstream reviews.

I'm under a vow-of-silence regarding the subject matter of the sequel...

[Mr. Z]

I can't say that I'm happy to hear that you're considering changes to the economic system.

Well, on the other hand, CoG will probably always be CoG, so you'll always have that!

It seems I may be a minority, in that I'm an old-fashioned grognard who grew up on detailed board games that necessitated incessant debates about published rules and occasionally the creation of house rules to better reflect historical accuracy.

Yeah, this doesn't seem to be the prevailing opinion nowadays, for better or for worse.

I can't wait for the final patch of CoG to come out, because then I'll start the exciting (for me) process of discovering what can be modded to suit my own ideas of historical accuracy. I'm very surprised at the lack of modding (at least as evidenced in these forums) so far.

Well, we certainly encourage it, so we look forward to whatever you (and others) find you can do!

I think that the better solution would be a re-design of the rule book, with clearer or more detailed explanations of some aspects of the game.

Manual is currently in a much-revised version, being reviewed. I'm afraid I don't know exactly what will happen when, however. I don't know that it is a more detailed explanation of things, though I hope it is a little clearer here and there--however, mostly an explanation of the economic system will lie outside the manual, i.e. in Ralegh's guides, and in a hoped-for economic white paper (the progress of which I haven't been monitoring closely.)

[TexHorns]

I played Medieval Total War extensively. I could easily say it was my favorite, most played game before COG. I enjoyed the strategic level of MTW, as there wasn't anything better at the time. I play EU some, but like HOI, didn't like the real-time strategic level. I like turn based games at all levels.

Rome Total War was a major disappointment to me. Although the graphics on the strategic map were new and interesting, after winning several times I became bored. COG blows RTW away in my opinion. I much prefer the pace of turnbased. I can't see myself buying another TW series game if WCS is going to continue to develop and have published games based on the COG system. I;m a pretty loyal customer who will keep coming back to the well as long as they keep putting them out there. BTW I still have MTW installed, but RTW isn't. Although it doesn't matter what else is installed as I'm not playing anything else but COG right now.

[Ursa MAior]

And what mods have you installed Tex? Because even patched up to 1.21 the AI was a no brainer in tactical batles. Which was a real pity since it was THE centerpoint of the game, not to mention unrealistic strength of spear untis.
I played a lot with hungarians and later Aragon, just to have a little challange, but even on very hard it wasnt a real deed to win. But in MP 6 vs 6 15000 ducats -or whatever currency- per side it was real fun.

[siRkid]

[:D][:D]And just what is the next game based on? [:D]

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

The mainstream reviews did enormous harm to our prospects of distribution...

Well, here's the thing. I saw the Wargamer's review, found it too wordy and ignored it! My biggest issue as to whether to buy CoG were two-fold:

1. Impact of bugs.
2. Complexity of learning.

The release of the current beta patch allayed fears there and my failed effort to re-learn Europa Universalis 2 over the weekend made me re-look at the forum feedback here, the screen shots and predict the enjoyment CoG would offer me. The 2d tactical battles represented a supplementary feature of the game and not a faddish afterthought. That sold me as did the promise of a diplomatic engine that worked. And I bought!

Eric I think CoG has a definite market for it - the empire building, histo-realist, war gamer. Currently, there is nothing like your game available. Less historical alternatives are; Rise of Nations, CiV4, RTW and dare I say Age of Empires 3. None offer turn based, long term gameplay as with CoG. None offer the realism of a definitive epoch either. So there has to be something more to getting CoG churning out big dollars.

Marketing and straightening out bugs will do it.

Reviews can mean a lot but only where 1/2 star ratings are given - Paradox's PC Diplomacy for example! I was so desperate for a historical gaming session I nearly bought that over the weekend too! But being $15 AUD more expensive than CoG - I held back at the last moment and glad I did.

(Btw CoG's price is just right imo. I know the two hard copies at my local gaming store sold the day I told folks they we available! Oh well, I do love Matrix's Digital Download too [:)] )

Best of luck,
Adam.

[garoco]

I ´m agree with the words of Adam Parker. This product has an part of market fall in love.

[Erik Rutins]

Thanks for all the kind words, everyone. Be assured that we will continue to work to get CoG (and of course any future titles) to as many gamers as possible.

Regards,

- Erik

[sol_invictus]

If it weren't for Matrix and a few other small independents, I would have given up on pc gaming a couple of years ago.[&o]

[Krec]

i concer, the games i currently play are as follows:

spwaw
UV
COW

EF2 & WF

waiting patiently for CL thats a dream game to me and thinking on WITP

[Ursa MAior]

could you explain COW, EF2 & WF?

As of UV would you be interested in a short game or maybe a campaign? E.g. scen 19 I have never played before.

[Moltke71]

I'm afraid you wont be able to please those bozos in the big mags no matter what you do, but I support any efforts to make your very detailed games more friendly for a casual crowd

Mainstream mags wrote off serious wargame reviews five years ago, relagating them to postcards. Most of the reviews and commentaries are inept attempts at gonzo journalism.

[Khornish]

Although this thread has been dead for a few weeks, I did want to post my own thoughts. After playing for 3 days almost solid (well, my wife usurped my time so she could play several hours of CoH each day) I must say I am very pleased with my purchase of CoG.

Yes, the learning curve is steep, and there are things within the economic and diplomatic models that frustrate me, as well as some of the combat issues (60% chance to form line at the beginning of the battle.. come on!... give me a bonus to the first formation change of the battle at least.). However, as a student of history and as a fan of strategic/operational/tactical games, CoG is in a class on it's own. Imperial Glory is <bleep> on a stick and unworthy of taking up any space on my HDD. Yes, some people may like it due to the RTS combat element, but the strategic element is lousy.

My ideal version of CoG would be that instead of province to provice movement, we'd have free movement. Armies would follow roads, or travel cross country, from point to point. This would make crossroads, mountain passes, fortresses overlooking a river crossing all the more important to conducting an operational campaign.

Speaking of which, when might we get a clue about the subject for your next magnum opus? Please let it be either Frederick the Great, Wars of German Unification, or Rise of the Roman Republic.

I could see an Ancients version of CoG, but I think any other time between 1600-1791 would be too close to CoG to have a unique appeal. Other than the ancient period, a medieval period could be well received. However, my own preference would be for the ACW. Yes, the diplomatic portion would suffer greatly, but the operational and strategic game would be excellent, not to mention the detailed tactical battles.

At any rate, I'm gonna have to start my begging early so I could be a beta tester.

[ravinhood]

(And the American reviewers who gave CoG mediocre reviews seem to want a set of rules that is no more complicated than an intermediate-level boardgame...)

Yes, Yes that is what us Americans want. Easy set of rules and no more complicated than an intermediate-level boardgame. Yes Yes!

[ravinhood]

I know the two hard copies at my local gaming store sold the day I told folks they we available! Oh well, I do love Matrix's Digital Download too )

Crown of Glory sold "hard copies" in local gaming stores??? Since when?

[ericbabe]

economic and diplomatic models that frustrate me, as well as some of the combat issues (60% chance to form line at the beginning of the battle.. come on!... give me a bonus to the

Being fresh reduces the morale difficulty of formation involutions by 20%.


Eric

[1LTRambo]

I agree. The more realism that can be inject into a game the better. But then of course is how much it takes to develope each of those elements?