New WiR Game?

[Erik Rutins]

Pauk,

ORIGINAL: pauk
I assume that in WIR will be present historical units? (Italians, Hungarians, Romanians, Slovaks and Croats?)
Thank you for info Erik, we all appreciate your effort!

Yes, this will be a hard-core historical wargame. Hang in there, we'll make the forum available as soon as is reasonable.

Regards,

- Erik

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

PCT (pausable continuous time games)

I think that one of best games in that genre would be Road to Moscow, but this game is cancelled. One of the feature i like it most was losses statistics (killed, caputred soldiers, airplanes, tanks destroyed etc...)

these screenshots are from 1999!

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Yes, this will be a hard-core historical wargame. Hang in there, we'll make the forum available as soon as is reasonable.

Regards,

- Erik

[&o][&o][&o]

[Akira110]

Here's hoping it makes a decent game. I've been waiting for a russian themed war game.

[Captain Cruft]

I wouldn't worry about the OOB too much. WiR included all the minor countries. Download it and check it out, it's only c.1mb.

[Stavka_lite]

so.. is this game available or was stillborn like Harpoon 4 (waiting for Matrix to re-release their version)? I am looking for something to keep me occupied until Matrix releases their version.

[moses]

ORIGINAL: Stavka_lite

I am looking for something to keep me occupied until Matrix releases their version.

I wsa checking out the scenarios for the KorsonPocket/Normandy/Battles in Italy games. It appears they have one scenario that covers the entire eastern front.

[ravinhood]

Why don't you guys just go find a copy of "Second Front" it's a monster game and should work on your XP's or Win98's. No need for ANOTHER War in Russia. It's time now for LAND WAR IN THE PACIFIC damnit. And I want a MONSTER game of GUADACANAL.

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

It's time now for LAND WAR IN THE PACIFIC damnit. And I want a MONSTER game of GUADACANAL.

AGREED !


PTO Land warfare is a huge hole in this hobby of ours

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

You're right, the save and replay thing is a problem. Games solve it in different ways. PzC has an option where it does not allow you to save at all in PBEM mode. SPWaW has a feature which shows you how many times the opposing player has loaded and saved the file, so if there is a discrepancy you can see it.

Having never played the Decisive Battles series via PBEM (except for TAO2 which doesn't really count) I'm not sure what happens there. What I do know is that there is a very thriving PBEM community at ssg.com.au, so it must do something

It's worth noting that WEGO has basically the same problem of re-running turns, except that only one player (the "master", e.g. Japan in WitP) can do it ...

--
This whole problem is one reason I think that wargames should move to a client-server architecture, but I digress ...

For MWIF (Matrix Games' World in Flames) I intend to use a small utility program that can be run on any server system. The PBEM players, when they start a game, register their game with this utility program (which is running on a computer none of the players controls). I am calling the utility program eMWIF. eMWIF knows who is playing each registered game and where they are in the sequence of play for a turn (and which turn, of course). Whenever the sequence of play requires a random number, the player's version of MWIF, which resides on his own computer, places a request to eMWIF for a random number(s). This request goes out over the internet automatically and requires no special handling by the player. To the player, there might be a small delay, 10 to 20 seconds? eMWIF logs the event and returns the random number(s). What this all means is that rerolls are not possible. Saving the game and restoring it does not help for eMWIF has not only recorded the move, it has forwarded it, via email, to the opponent as well. There are more odds and ends to this design, mostly because of the highly interactive design of WIF - the player not on move has a ton of little decisions to make.

In a nutshell, by setting up a small software program on a third party system, cheating can be prevented in PBEM games. I considered a pure client-server design, but most of you can probably list all the reasons against that better than I can. And I found quite a few reasons against it. The third party machine can be just about anyone who is willing to let eMWIF run. The files are very tiny since eMWIF does not store the whole game (not the executible, not the data, not the graphics, not the sound, nor video, ...). I beat on this design pretty thoroughly back in August and will do so again when it comes time to code it. At this point I think it is solid in preventing cheating. By the way, the standard I am trying to achieve here is for the system to be rigorous enough that it enables PBEM tournaments of MWIF someday.

[Captain Cruft]

Good stuff, though how that does not constitute client-server (albeit for a limited purpose) I don't know

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Good stuff, though how that does not constitute client-server (albeit for a limited purpose) I don't know

Technically, client-server is used to describe an application where the primary program resides on a server. The user (the client) has a applet which is used to access the server. Typically, the client side has code for presenting information to the user (screen layouts) and letting the user enter commands (keyboard and mouse processing). The client side might have a small, local database of what the user has done most recently, but it doesn't maintain the 'official' databases for the application. It is on the server side that most of the code resides, along with the master databases. The clients are like children who have to go to a parent (the server) before doing anything on their own. The server is in complete control - and can handle multiple clients.

In game terms this means that the bulk of the simulation is on the server with the client only handling the interface. Portions of the master databases are tranmitted to each client during game play, and the client interacts with those portions when playing. Periodically the server updates the clients' databases to reflect changes. Note that the client side of the application doesn't really have all the information (data) when playing a game nor does it usually contain all the code for the simulation (e.g., combat results tables).

Conceptually, what I have designed for MWIF is different from a client-server game design. The user application has all the databases and all the code for making the game run. A player can play head-to-head, solitaire, and multiplayer-live-over-the-internet. When he chooses PBEM, the main program requires that an external software routine be available (eMWIF) via the internet. eMWIF only knows a little bit about a game in progress (who is playing and where they are in the sequence of play), it doesn't contain any of the data on the map or units, for example. It specializes in generating random numbers for PBEM games and making sure everyone playing the game is kept up-to-date on everybody else's use of the random number generator. This is what I refer to as a 'whoop-de-doo' little program, not too hard to write, very limited in scope. eMWIF is like a referee, it doesn't play the game, it just enforces some of the rules.

[elcidce]

There is a Pacific Theater version of Conquest of the Aegean coming soon. Your wait for the Pacific land war is going to be over soon. So far it is covering the South Pacific in the early years of the war. Future editions will include later battles I suspect.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The third party machine can be just about anyone who is willing to let eMWIF run.

Given that cheats and hacks have been released even for a monster niche game such as WiTP, how does this architecture stop cheating? Player downloads hack, runs their own hacked version of eMWIF, and cheats even easier than before...

Only an official server that Matrix or some other trusted entity maintains can work IMO. Letting anyone run it just makes cheating easier, not harder.

[ravinhood]

ORIGINAL: Sarge

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

It's time now for LAND WAR IN THE PACIFIC damnit. And I want a MONSTER game of GUADACANAL.

AGREED !


PTO Land warfare is a huge hole in this hobby of ours

Huge hole? It's a CRATER!!!

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Veldor

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The third party machine can be just about anyone who is willing to let eMWIF run.

Given that cheats and hacks have been released even for a monster niche game such as WiTP, how does this architecture stop cheating? Player downloads hack, runs their own hacked version of eMWIF, and cheats even easier than before...

Only an official server that Matrix or some other trusted entity maintains can work IMO. Letting anyone run it just makes cheating easier, not harder.

32 bit encryption of files requiring 2 keys (axis side and allied side). Keys are generated randomly so a second version of MWIF or eMWIF can't crack the key, it has to be provided. Each of the keys resides on a player's computer (one for each side playing the game), neither is on the third party machine. The only way to get a key is to have it sent to you by the other player when the game is started. The design is something like what is used for safety desposit boxes: two unique keys are required to open the lock.

I see no reason to create back doors into the program code, so people can look all they want for special magical keystrokes, they won't exist.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
32 bit encryption of files requiring 2 keys (axis side and allied side). Keys are generated randomly so a second version of MWIF or eMWIF can't crack the key, it has to be provided. Each of the keys resides on a player's computer (one for each side playing the game), neither is on the third party machine. The only way to get a key is to have it sent to you by the other player when the game is started. The design is something like what is used for safety desposit boxes: two unique keys are required to open the lock.

No doubt someone will still take on the challenge of finding a way to crack and subsequentely cheat the system. It's happened with every non client-server game to date. If you have access to all the program executables, which you would in this case, you can reverse engine and crack anything. Cheats will be released and those that aren't so hot at the game, or just like cheating, will cheat. Just another reason many prefer to play the A.I. (That is unless the A.I. cheats too! [:-])

Now such a system as you describe is certainly better than doing nothing, but you can't stop cheating, just like you can't stop piracy, with any non pure client-server architecture.

This is why its such an attractive model for anti-piracy methods (such as used in MMPORG games). Cheating in those games is likewise generally limited to actually exploiting bugs in the games rather than hacking or rewriting program executables to actually allow you to do something you otherwise couldn't. You can't reverse engineer and otherwise hack or modify it because you do not have access to that part of the code in the first place (Its running only on the game servers).

[Veldor]

A quick look for one of Matrix's more current games, Crown of Glory turned this up:

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²³ [ Releaser Name ] ..... Shaikh Adeel ³±
²³ [ Releaser Email ] ..... {omitted for post} ³±
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²³ [ Release Name ] ..... Crown of Glory [ver-1.0.0] ³±
²³ [ Release Type ] ..... Trainer ³±
²³ [ Release Version ] ..... 1.0 ³±
²³ [ Release Size ] ..... 26 Kb ³±
²³ [ Release Date ] ..... 07/08/05 ³±
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[ravinhood]

Lol I can't believe we have cheaters in this niche wargaming class. Surely by now you guys are old enough to accept defeat without resorting to cheating? Now, I can understand kiddie games (RTS) having loads of cheats, kids cheat they are taught from 5 years old to cheat with nintendo etc etc. It was a sad day they ever released the Game Genie.

Now, some games have (variations of playing the game), take Grand Theft Auto Vice City for example. It had variations of turning things on or off and some of those I used like having "everyone" attack me or all the chicks follow me around lol or have everyone attack everyone. Now those alterations were kewl to play with, but, to CHEAT to win it, if there were any I never used those like skipping missions or GOD mode where nothing could kill you like origional DOOM. You could walk through walls in that one...how do I know? My 12 year old son of course found out the cheat codes from school and said "COME LOOK DAD"! lol You see even when you TRY to teach your children the RIGHT way, some other kids come along and teach them the WRONG way, and at 12 years old they are more prone to listen to school friends than to mom and pop. Even as I said you won't get the full enjoyment of the game cheating like that son, he said "But, this is FUN DAD!!" WATCH THIS" as he slaughtered a whole room of stuff and didn't take a scratch. lol I gave up after that.

But, like Veldor said, it's the main reason I play most games against the AI, if I can't play you face to face, there's that bit of doubt that there's not going to be some cheating going on behind my back especially after playing AOE online for about a month. Cheaters ruin the game for everyone, maybe they enjoy this, they are so miserable in life, have no friends, fat and ugly, pimples, mom and dad wish they had never been born stuff like that, that their only enjoyment in life is making others miserable also and then of course the bragging rights of having beaten you and putting it in your face. lol But, I do play some PBEM games of Combat Mission and the ones I have been playing with apparently don't cheat cause I win a few, lose a few and we have a good laugh, none of this putting it in your face stuff, we usually go over where one or the other made their mistakes. Quite fun when you have honest players.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Veldor

No doubt someone will still take on the challenge of finding a way to crack and subsequentely cheat the system. It's happened with every non client-server game to date. If you have access to all the program executables, which you would in this case, you can reverse engine and crack anything. Cheats will be released and those that aren't so hot at the game, or just like cheating, will cheat.

Now such a system as you describe is certainly better than doing nothing, but you can't stop cheating, just like you can't stop piracy, with any non pure client-server architecture.

This is why its such an attractive model for anti-piracy methods (such as used in MMPORG games). Cheating in those games is likewise generally limited to actually exploiting bugs in the games rather than hacking or rewriting program executables to actually allow you to do something you otherwise couldn't. You can't reverse engineer and otherwise hack or modify it because you do not have access to that part of the code in the first place (Its running only on the game servers).

I have no interest in taking on the piracy experts.

I do want to stop the cheaters in PBEM and multiplayer Internet games of MWIF. If people want to modify the game software with hacks so they always win against the solitaire opponent, or even head-to-head, what do I care? They can use the CD as a frisbee too, if they want.

But Ravinhood's post (#59) serves as my motivation here. When investing a lot of time and effort playing a monster game, the player should be assured that the opponent isn't cheating. Whatever I can do to provide that assurance, by how I write the code, I will try to do. If a hack exists to enable you to have extra units (for example), then when the attack orders are executed on your copy of the game, the attack is a smashing success. But when it is executed on the opponent's copy, the extra units aren't there and things don't add up. The program detects the mismatch in the unit lists (or map terrain, or available build points, whatever). If the opponent's copy of the game databases don't produce the same results as yours, then the game reports corrupted files, and that the players have to jointly agree to correct them. People can still waste your time of course. You just will know that they are and can stop playing against them immediately, when they try to cheat.