Campaign Activation Honor Rules.

[Tankerace]

Yeah.... but what is the problem? You have to garrison Chinese bases after you capture them... part of the reason why the war there bogged down.

I understand what you are saying about Manchuria, but it would seem to me that those bases would need to be garrisoned too.

[Tankerace]

Though, for Manchuria, I wonder if we made them Soviet bases attached to China, if it would trigger the activation....

[Tankerace]

Hmm, making Manchurian bases Soviet doesn't trigger Soviet activation, but it does make it where they don't need to be garrisoned. So I guess we'll go with that.


Just becareful not to have troops wander in to Actual Soviet territory, or the Russian bear gets angry.

[Helpless]

alright, i get it .... since form beginning Manchuria is Chinese, it's cities once captured have partisan activities and require garrison and the only way to change it is to change it's nationality (ex. Soviets).

Hm.. that might be little bit odd. From other side places like Luda require 400AP to be in, it is more that full size japanese division. May be it is worth to decrease industry/resources in manchuria, by that decreasing garrison requiremets?

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Hmm, making Manchurian bases Soviet doesn't trigger Soviet activation, but it does make it where they don't need to be garrisoned. So I guess we'll go with that.


Just becareful not to have troops wander in to Actual Soviet territory, or the Russian bear gets angry.

I guess I missed the reason why Chinese ( Manchurian ) cities shouldn't need to be garrisoned like any other Chinese cities !?

[Tankerace]

I agree... it would seem to me they would need to be garrisoned too, but if most people don't want it that way....

[jwilkerson]

Well I've started my "invasion" of Manchuria ( playing Japanese against AI in scenario #1 - reversing my previous play test ) and I can agree that the garrison requirements are a bit high. But this can be easily corrected by reducing the Heavy Industry, Resources and Oil ( as well as taking the installations all down as far as makes sense for the period ) I don't think we ever bothered to figure out exactly what the formula is - but the garrison requirements are a computed value and are dependent upon the afore mentioned attributes. So my suggestion would be to considerably reduce the garrision requirements ( by half ? ) by making the indicated infrastructure reductions - but still keep them above zero. The historical garrision requirement for the IJA was 4 Divisions ( source: Kogun ). So this can be a guideline.

[Helpless]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

So my suggestion would be to considerably reduce the garrision requirements ( by half ? ) by making the indicated infrastructure reductions - but still keep them above zero.

I think this would be a good compromise. Munchuria was mainly agricultural region, so HI reduction would be somehow historical. [:)]

[Tankerace]

Yeah, I've already done that for the patch, should help tremendously.

[Tankerace]

Who'd have thought that in a game subtitled "Dreadnoughts in the Pacific" people would be bickering so much about Manchuria [:D]

[Tankerace]

Though the question has to be asked..... why would you invade Manchuria anyway. Not like its worth anything.... (at least in terms of VPs)

[Helpless]

You should be really happy. If manchuria/china are the only "problem", then the games is just perfect [:)], cause noone complains about other 99% of the game. Actually if you leave everything the way it is, I'm not going to be dissapointed [:)]

This is the second game I'm enjoying so much in ver 1.00. The fist was "Tin Soldiers" [:)]

[Tankerace]

Hehe, I'm not worried about it really. I'm actually glad to have feedback, China/Manchuria was always tricky to me, because I wanted it to be a viable theater, but also allow it to be "ignorable", unlike in WitP. I think the first patch should accomplish just that (though again, why invade Manchuria... for breathing room? [:D])

[Helpless]

Because you need more bases for Kwantung Army in WITP [:D]

[Mike Carroll]

I guess I would say that historically the Japanese were pouring vast sums of capital into Manchuria starting in the early 20's to develop mining and infrastructure. All the historical treaties at the time recognized Japan's "special" interest in Manchuria.

Probably a part of the game that may need some work. The question is would Japan invest significant resources to the theatre before it had defeated the US Fleet? From some reading I have done about the period they were also extremely concerned with their old enemy the Russians.

[Mike Carroll]

I have a question on Australian/New Zealand land units. What do people think, should they be allowed to operate outside their own bases? Obviously you would have to change their HQ, but some will come as Southwest Pacific. Do you see Australians invading Pearl Harbor or the Philippines or Midway? My inclination is to basically restrict them to the original Australian bases and the Dutch East Indies. Would be good to get feedback from someone with more knowledge of Australia in this time period.

[Mike Carroll]

Below are the Honor rules being used in TERRIBLE SWIFT SWORD IN THE PACIFIC - Question at the bottom.

Resupply Operations: Only India or the United States are a source of supply for US/French forces in the Philippines or Indo-China. Supply stockpiles in the Dutch East Indies, China, Indo-China or Commonwealth bases will not be used to run supply to the PI. Convoys must journey from India or the US to either the Philippines or Indo-China.

United States:

1. Start the game active and may operate without restriction within their own bases and in China.
2. Naval warships may use British bases and repair facilties in India, Singapore, and Hong Kong.
The surface warships and submarines of the US, French and China cannot base out of these ports for combat operations. They may only go to the port to utilize the repair facilties. Before they can actively engage in combat they must first go to an authorized port. Resupply convoys can refuel at these ports. In fact India may be a major supply source for Indo-China with supply convoys moving through Singapore to final destinations.
3. May use French bases in Indo-China and South Pacific.
4. May use Australian/New Zealand bases starting Jan 1923/1927
5. US Warships may not enter any non-active base. If they do so they will be interred at the base until that power is activated. The Japanese player will be notified of any ships interred and at which base.

France:

1. French naval forces start the game as an active power - may use the same bases as the US.
2. French land forces must remain in Indo-China and Southpac unless Indo-China or Southpac is attacked by Japan. Then they may move without restriction.
3. French forces in Shang-Hai may be used to expel the Japanese garrison and move freely in China.

China:

1. Starts the game as an active power.
2. All Japanese Bases in China must be removed before any moves on Korea can be taken.
3. Chinese land and sea forces may only operate in China and the surrounding Sea Areas. Chinese land units assigned to the Chinese Military HQ may not operate in Manchuria or Korea.
4. A maximum of 12 Chinese infantry/cavalry units can be assigned to non-Chinese Military HQ. No more than 2 HQ units can be assigned to Non-Chinese Military HQ. These are the only Chinese units allowed to operate in Manchuria and Korea. Note that 9 Chinese units start the game as Southeast Asia and may operate in this theatre.

British/Commonwealth/Canada:

1. Starts the game as an inactive power.
2. British and Commonwealth cargo vessels may be used freely by the US player. Except they may not be used in amphibious attacks until activated.
3. British and Commonwealth Warships will not actively attack Japanese forces. They will defend their bases. Defense of their bases is defined as any Japanse forces within 2 hexes (except for Hong Kong and Shang Hai). However they can escort convoys between British/Commonwealth bases. ie. Singapore to Hong Kong etc. Submarines will stay in base or patrol the Indian Ocean.
4. British forces in ShangHai can be used to expel the Japanese Garrison in ShangHai.
5. British/Commonwealth land forces will remain in their bases until activated.
6. British naval forces will remain in their bases until activated. They may escort convoys between their bases.
7. British/Commonwealth will become active when:

a. Japan may attack Shanghai without triggering a British Empire Response
b. They attack any British/Commonwealth/Canadian Base (land or sea).
c. They sink two or more British warships (be careful of raiding British convoys)
d. Jan 1924/1928
e. Pearl Harbor falls
f. Australia/New Zealand enters the war.
f. Japanese score is 4 times the Allied Score. Not sure about this one we will modify if it does not seem right.

Australia/New Zealand:

1. Start the game as an inactive power.
2. Cargo vessels may be used freely by the US player. Except they may not be used in amphibious attacks until activated.
3. Australian/New Zealand Warships will not activately attack Japanese forces. They will escort convoys between their bases and defend their bases. (Any Japanese forces within 2 hexes may be attacked).
4. Australia/New Zealand become active when:

a. Jan 1924/1928
b. Pearl Harbor Falls
c. Britain enters the war.
d. Japan attacks any Australian or New Zealand bases (land or sea).
e. Japan sinks 1 or more Australian warship.
f. Japanese surface warships move into the Coral Sea.
e. Japanese score is 4 times the Allied score.

Dutch:

1. Starts the game as an inactive power.
2. US player may operate Dutch cargo vessels freely. Except they may not be used in amphibious attacks until activated.
3. Warships can escort convoys between Dutch bases.
4. Warships will not actively engage Japanese vessels unless they are within two hexes of a Dutch base.
5. The Dutch become active when:

a. Pearl Harbor falls
b. Japanese score is 5 times Allied score
c. Japanese attack any Dutch base (land or sea).
d. Japanese sink three or more warships.

I am thinking about removing the automatic activation for the British Empire (British, Commonwealth, Candians, Australians). Also changing the Australian base activation for the US to June 1923/1927.

This way the only reason the British Empire would come into the war is if the Japanese capture Pearl Harbor, inflict massive losses (4 to 1 victory - still need to work this one) on the US or the Japanese attack the British Empire. Also Australian/New Zealand land forces would be restricted to Southwest Pac, South Pac, Australian Command and DEI.

The pressure on the Japanese is increased in June 1923/27 because the US would be able to fully utilize Australian/New Zealand bases. Any response by the Japanese (ie invade or attack an Australian base) would trigger a British Empire activation. This is unfair and a violation of neutrality but I think true to the times.

Does anybody have an opinion on these changes? Or a better idea?