Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions?

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Honda

Last time I talked to AN American (US citizen, not a Canadian, eh) I told him Croatia should invade Phillipines. He told me there's no way we could acomplish that 'cause the US would stop us from doing it.
He was dead serious. [X(]
I got a great story.

[:D][:D][:D]

I know what you mean, Snake, and I agree with you.[:D]

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Seriously, I'd favour simply reducing experience levels across the board as they are so high we may as well just have no way of differentiating at all. If guys like Welch at PH are 93 [:D] (my ass) what would Hartmann's rating be? Or Galland? Moelders? Marseille?

I would think that an across the board readjustment of exp level would be an excellent idea (leaving out historical pilots) so the mean average would be around 55 and let them all gain experience through the game. Someone ought to experiment with this.


This is not a shot fired across your bow Ron, but to me guys like Welch (on all sides) being a 93 I don't have a particular problem with - only because these 'few' showed special talent or ability, which is why we know Welch's and Moelders' and Sakai's names over the 200,000(+) nameless airmen.
I believe studies have shown that a grossly disproportionate amount of kills were made by the top 3 to 5% of pilots (something on the order of 40-5-% of all kills?). So for all these characters I view their EXP to read as "Talent"

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: pauk

ORIGINAL: Honda

Last time I talked to AN American (US citizen, not a Canadian, eh) I told him Croatia should invade Phillipines. He told me there's no way we could acomplish that 'cause the US would stop us from doing it.
He was dead serious. [X(]
I got a great story.

[:D][:D][:D]

I know what you mean, Snake, and I agree with you.[:D]

What can I say Pauk, some Americans are real idiots...[8|]

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

What can I say Pauk, some Americans are real idiots...[8|]

please, let's keep it polite.

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: pauk

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

What can I say Pauk, some Americans are real idiots...[8|]

please, let's keep it polite.

I am being polite, any guy who would take the Croatia invades the Philippines idea that deadly serious is a 'putz', as in - no sense of humor

[Dereck]

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

Given that, and Japanese over supply of available sea-lift capability (and I know that was only done so the AI could work well), it leads to game play like - as Halsey put it - Age of Empires: War in the Pacific.

So it's not a good idea to half the Japanese AK/TK class capacities in a game against the Japanese AI?

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Seriously, I'd favour simply reducing experience levels across the board as they are so high we may as well just have no way of differentiating at all. If guys like Welch at PH are 93 [:D] (my ass) what would Hartmann's rating be? Or Galland? Moelders? Marseille?

I would think that an across the board readjustment of exp level would be an excellent idea (leaving out historical pilots) so the mean average would be around 55 and let them all gain experience through the game. Someone ought to experiment with this.


This is not a shot fired across your bow Ron, but to me guys like Welch (on all sides) being a 93 I don't have a particular problem with - only because these 'few' showed special talent or ability, which is why we know Welch's and Moelders' and Sakai's names over the 200,000(+) nameless airmen.
I believe studies have shown that a grossly disproportionate amount of kills were made by the top 3 to 5% of pilots (something on the order of 40-5-% of all kills?). So for all these characters I view their EXP to read as "Talent"

What did Welch do after PH? Seriously, so he shot down a couple bombers at PH they get Ben Afleck and the little shit to play him (loosely Welch )and the other guy.[:D] This get's him a 90+. Well, I fart around with flight sims...guess I'm at least in the 50s.[;)]

http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html

Ooooh. Wow.[8|] He is maybe a 50-60.

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

What did Welch do after PH? Seriously, so he shot down a couple bombers at PH they get Ben Afleck and the little shit to play him (loosely Welch )and the other guy.[:D] This get's him a 90+. Well, I fart around with flight sims...guess I'm at least in the 50s.[;)]

http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html

Ooooh. Wow.[8|] He is maybe a 50-60.\

Well, he did shoot down 16 planes which by US standards (because of rotations) wasn't too bad, and had other memerable achievements - like beating Yeager in breaking the sound barrier, appearantly shot down Mig 15s in Korea (as many as 6 according to his children). I think he achieved far more than just being another pilot.

EDIT: after looking at the list of all aces from WWI and WWII I would definately rate the man a 93. That list is damn small compared to the hundreds of thousands of pilots who flew...
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/aces.html

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

What did Welch do after PH? Seriously, so he shot down a couple bombers at PH they get Ben Afleck and the little shit to play him (loosely Welch )and the other guy.[:D] This get's him a 90+. Well, I fart around with flight sims...guess I'm at least in the 50s.[;)]

http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html

Ooooh. Wow.[8|] He is maybe a 50-60.\

Well, he did shoot down 16 planes which by US standards (because of rotations) wasn't too bad, and had other memerable achievements - like beating Yeager in breaking the sound barrier, appearantly shot down Mig 15s in Korea (as many as 6 according to his children). I think he achieved far more than just being another pilot.

EDIT: after looking at the list of all aces from WWI and WWII I would definately rate the man a 93. That list is damn small compared to the hundreds of thousands of pilots who flew...

So let him "earn" the rating. He has not done shit yet.[;)]

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

What did Welch do after PH? Seriously, so he shot down a couple bombers at PH they get Ben Afleck and the little shit to play him (loosely Welch )and the other guy.[:D] This get's him a 90+. Well, I fart around with flight sims...guess I'm at least in the 50s.[;)]

http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html

Ooooh. Wow.[8|] He is maybe a 50-60.\

Well, he did shoot down 16 planes which by US standards (because of rotations) wasn't too bad, and had other memerable achievements - like beating Yeager in breaking the sound barrier, appearantly shot down Mig 15s in Korea (as many as 6 according to his children). I think he achieved far more than just being another pilot.

EDIT: after looking at the list of all aces from WWI and WWII I would definately rate the man a 93. That list is damn small compared to the hundreds of thousands of pilots who flew...

So let him "earn" the rating. He has not done shit yet.[;)]

Ron,
Think for a minute - none of those pilots have earned anything yet. The war is just starting!

Unless your point was do away with all historical pilots, that's a different matter.

[Berkut]

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: pauk

ORIGINAL: Honda

Last time I talked to AN American (US citizen, not a Canadian, eh) I told him Croatia should invade Phillipines. He told me there's no way we could acomplish that 'cause the US would stop us from doing it.
He was dead serious. [X(]
I got a great story.

[:D][:D][:D]

I know what you mean, Snake, and I agree with you.[:D]

What can I say Pauk, some Americans are real idiots...[8|]

Once, I talked to AN Croatian (Croatian, not Serbian), and boy, was he ever stupid!

I guess stupid people are all over the place...

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes



Well, he did shoot down 16 planes which by US standards (because of rotations) wasn't too bad, and had other memerable achievements - like beating Yeager in breaking the sound barrier, appearantly shot down Mig 15s in Korea (as many as 6 according to his children). I think he achieved far more than just being another pilot.

EDIT: after looking at the list of all aces from WWI and WWII I would definately rate the man a 93. That list is damn small compared to the hundreds of thousands of pilots who flew...

So let him "earn" the rating. He has not done shit yet.[;)]

Ron,
Think for a minute - none of those pilots have earned anything yet. The war is just starting!

Unless your point was do away with all historical pilots, that's a different matter.

I'm saying that all pilots could use a 20-25 exp point drop. Historical pilots too because they appear in the game based on historical accomplishments. With only 1-99, giving every historical pilot 80-90s ratings erases the difference between good and phenomenal. Make combat less bloody too. Shit, with this A2A model I've seen guys score double digits at PH. Obviously too high.

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I'm saying that all pilots could use a 20-25 exp point drop. Historical pilots too because they appear in the game based on historical accomplishments. With only 1-99, giving every historical pilot 80-90s ratings erases the difference between good and phenomenal. Make combat less bloody too. Shit, with this A2A model I've seen guys score double digits at PH. Obviously too high.

Ahh, I see. I was beginning to think that George Welch had personally offended you! [:D]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I'm saying that all pilots could use a 20-25 exp point drop. Historical pilots too because they appear in the game based on historical accomplishments. With only 1-99, giving every historical pilot 80-90s ratings erases the difference between good and phenomenal. Make combat less bloody too. Shit, with this A2A model I've seen guys score double digits at PH. Obviously too high.

Ahh, I see. I was beginning to think that George Welch had personally offended you! [:D]

Not at all...LOL. Just don't see the point of having experience ratings 1-99 if all historical pilots are given top ten percentile ratings. Did not know about Welch breaking the SB in a dive. Great story.

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I'm saying that all pilots could use a 20-25 exp point drop. Historical pilots too because they appear in the game based on historical accomplishments. With only 1-99, giving every historical pilot 80-90s ratings erases the difference between good and phenomenal. Make combat less bloody too. Shit, with this A2A model I've seen guys score double digits at PH. Obviously too high.

Ahh, I see. I was beginning to think that George Welch had personally offended you! [:D]

Not at all...LOL. Just don't see the point of having experience ratings 1-99 if all historical pilots are given top ten percentile ratings. Did not know about Welch breaking the SB in a dive. Great story.

LOL

A random thought - if combat experience in China is the reason for high exp ratings of Japanese air units, why are the Chinese air unit so inexperienced after four years of war?

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
In WitP the Allies *can't* challenge the Japanese CVs through April 1942 unless the Japanese player is a damned fool and spends several days blunting his sword against, for example, Hawaii. Both players know this.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill. The Zero bonus is 5 maneuver points. It is gone May 1 of 42. In April it is +1 manuever, which effectively makes it an A6M3 instead of an A6M2. Eliminating the Zero bonus will not cause the Allied player to engage with his CV's unless, as you say, the IJN player does something stupid or the Allied player is an idiot. You neglect 3 other factors which affect the Allied mind when you claim the Zero bonus is the root of Allied timidity in game:

• USN players wait for 36 fighters - USN CV's upgrade to 36 fighters in the early summer, long after the Zero bonus is gone.
• USN Players wait for CV and escort AA upgrades - Most of these occur in April and July of 42. In late April, when Allied CV's have had an opportunity go to port, upgrade, repair and redeploy, the Allied commander has to wait a few days for the bonus to be gone.
• USN players wait til they have the CV's to get an even number of planes/carriers - The USN has 3 CV's at war start and gets 1 more in mid January, 1 more mid February. By the time that last CV deploys to a location where a CV battle would likely occur, you are looking at the March bonus of a whopping +2 maneuver.

Even in early 42, the USN can hit and hurt KB in the midst of an operation. The problem is, no Allied player will do it bcause they do not face any political pressures to do anything but play turtle. If there was a rule that accumulated base VP each month instead of the way it is handled now, Allied players would feel some pressure to defend. As it is, all the Allied player does is fall back as long and as far as the Japanese are willing to penetrate until they have a decisive advantage. Then, they fight back. Any adventure by Japan beyond a defensible perimeter has one goal and one goal only - to kill troops, planes and ships before the decisive advantage is reached. If I conducted an op against Johnston or Luganville, my goal would be kiling troops, planes and ships, not the base itself because holding the base would cost me more in the long run that it was worth. It is not about taking territory because the territory has no endgame value. As soon as it is retaken, it is lost from a VP perspective and it is as if I had never taken it.

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
As a result the Japanese player can with impunity attempt operations that the real Japanese would not have attempted (like a move on Johnston Island, or Luganville).

I really am beginning to wonder if you ever played Japan. Yeah, I could mount those operations. The amount of force that Japan can project is severely limited, and if I am projecting force there, I am leaving other areas wide open. In WW2, early Allied CV use entailed raids on areas the IJN CV's were not believed to be. If I have KB at Johnston or Luganville, there are a host of other areas where the presence of 3 USN CV's would cause me a world of hurt.

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
The "strategic picture" or "strategic flavor" or "look and feel" of the early strategic situation is all wrong and it grossly favors the Japanese.

Bull. First of all, the "flavor" of the first six months of the war was the perception that Japan was invincible and could take what they wanted, since they were not thwarted much until Coral Sea. There wasn't a whole lot of good news coming out of the South Pacific for the Allies before Coral Sea. The truth is that even in game, Japan has limited resources and can conduct operations with near impunity in one theatre until early summer. Any more theaters than that or any later than that, and Japan doesn't have the air forces to conduct the offensive with impunity, and that leaves you with a place to attack. You simply have to attack where Japan is not. Looking at my position on any given turn, there are a half dozen places where a raid by 3 USN CV's would cause me heartburn, but the fact is Allied players don't have the balls to conduct the ops. They take the easy way out and wait til they have overwhelming force.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes
A random thought - if combat experience in China is the reason for high exp ratings of Japanese air units, why are the Chinese air unit so inexperienced after four years of war?

Cuz they're dead.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes




Ahh, I see. I was beginning to think that George Welch had personally offended you! [:D]

Not at all...LOL. Just don't see the point of having experience ratings 1-99 if all historical pilots are given top ten percentile ratings. Did not know about Welch breaking the SB in a dive. Great story.

LOL

A random thought - if combat experience in China is the reason for high exp ratings of Japanese air units, why are the Chinese air unit so inexperienced after four years of war?

Why do Kamikaze pilots wear helmets? [:D] WTFKnows?

[Ron Saueracker]

If there was a rule that accumulated base VP each month instead of the way it is handled now

This was proposed but did not meet with much support.[8|]

[mdiehl]

First of all, the "flavor" of the first six months of the war was the perception that Japan was invincible and could take what they wanted, since they were not thwarted much until Coral Sea.

That is incorrect. Or rather, incomplete. The flavor to the Japanese was "we can take anything we want." The flavor to the USN was, "At the right moment we're gonna burn these guys." Both flavors produced a particularly satisfying dessert called "The Battle of Midway" in which the Japanese contributino to the flavor was the ice cream and the USN contribution was the hot fudge, whipped cream, a cherry on top, and a party for the occasion.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill. The Zero bonus is 5 maneuver points. It is gone May 1 of 42.

1. It's five maneuver points too many, at least against the USN.
2. If the Zero Bonus is such an insignificant little molehill, then you should have no objection to seeing it eliminated from the get go.