Odds anyone???

[spence]

Rising Sun Scenario - Jan 8 1942

ABDA COMMUNIQUE for Jan 7, 1942 - Today, bombers from attacked a large enemy naval force off the southern coast of Borneo. Numerous hits were scored on 2 Japanese battleships; reportedly one of the Kongo class and another much larger one. Both ships were reported afire by our planes. A transport was also hit.

The bomb hits were with 500 and 250 lb bombs. At least one 500 lber hit each of Yamato and Kongo (2x500 lb on Kongo). Yamato got hit with an additional 5 250 lbers. I do not expect that damage is really that significant on either.

The TF with Yamato and Kongo appears to contain transports as well, since some bombers in one of the raids that attacked Yamato also went after an AP. (Is it possible to put a BB in a Transport TF?). Prince of Wales, Repulse, Houston, and Boise and some 4-pipers are in position to intercept the TF wherever it goes (Kraken, Banjarmasin, or that other SE Borneo port). With reaction range set to 4 "Force Z and a 1/2" is positioned 3 hexes or less from each of those ports for this turn. PoW and Repulse previously sent Haruna to the yards (at least-might even have gotten lucky and don't know it yet) in a daylight engagement at Kuching and after joining with Houston and Boise later put 10+/- transports down one night at Amboina. Most of the ships in "Force Z and a 1/2" have a bit of damage though none are over 15. They all have decent experience in night combat now. A night surface action is probable.

What do you think the outcome will be??? (Win, loss or draw I'll let ya'll know)

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: spence

Rising Sun Scenario - Jan 8 1942

ABDA COMMUNIQUE for Jan 7, 1942 - Today, bombers from attacked a large enemy naval force off the southern coast of Borneo. Numerous hits were scored on 2 Japanese battleships; reportedly one of the Kongo class and another much larger one. Both ships were reported afire by our planes. A transport was also hit.

The bomb hits were with 500 and 250 lb bombs. At least one 500 lber hit each of Yamato and Kongo (2x500 lb on Kongo). Yamato got hit with an additional 5 250 lbers. I do not expect that damage is really that significant on either.

The TF with Yamato and Kongo appears to contain transports as well, since some bombers in one of the raids that attacked Yamato also went after an AP. (Is it possible to put a BB in a Transport TF?). Prince of Wales, Repulse, Houston, and Boise and some 4-pipers are in position to intercept the TF wherever it goes (Kraken, Banjarmasin, or that other SE Borneo port). With reaction range set to 4 "Force Z and a 1/2" is positioned 3 hexes or less from each of those ports for this turn. PoW and Repulse previously sent Haruna to the yards (at least-might even have gotten lucky and don't know it yet) in a daylight engagement at Kuching and after joining with Houston and Boise later put 10+/- transports down one night at Amboina. Most of the ships in "Force Z and a 1/2" have a bit of damage though none are over 15. They all have decent experience in night combat now. A night surface action is probable.

What do you think the outcome will be??? (Win, loss or draw I'll let ya'll know)

It is not possible to put BBs in a transport TF, but it IS possible to put BBs in a TF with transports: make it an Escort TF. You can put anything you want in it, and it will try to avoid combat. Once you get to your destination, reform the transports into a Transport TF and unload them.

As for the possibility of a win - i will be watching with interest. I would say the outcome depends a lot on the relative composition of the forces: if the IJN has a lot of DDs with the convoy, you may well get creamed.

If you can catch them by surprise, though, things go much better. If you catch them at night at short range, your BB/BC guns can pierce the Yamato's armor, i think. You might be at a disadvantage at long range during daylight. The leadership values help in achieving surprise, i think, as well as the TYPE of TF. Supposedly, bombardment TFs are at a disadvantage when they meet with Surface Warfare TFs.

Good luck.

[Feinder]

It's not that bad a match-up.

But you should also plan for, "What do I do when the battle is over?" If PoW is damaged, will she be able get away from LBA in the morning? Damaging an IJN BB, and having one of your own damaged is fine. But if Japanese LBA is just going to finish you off the morning, you've lost a first-rate BB, for just damaging one of his.

Just something to consider.

-F-

[Bradley7735]

You can get a BB into a transport TF. Form a transport TF and load ships. Then turn it into an Escort TF. Then transfer BB's to it. Then (I think) you can turn it back into a transport TF.

[spence]

Never knew about the Escort TF?Transport TF trick.

[AmiralLaurent]

You can put a BB in an escort TF and but I don't think you can then turn it into a transport TF. Anyway my odds are for a crushing Force Z victory if your opponent continues like that. Escort and Transport TF fight far worse than surface combat TF so your TF should have the advantage if the ships are still in the same TF (by the way both escort and transport TF will flee the hex of the battle).

Aslo the BB Yamato should not be available at this stage of the war (Jan 1942) so this ship should be the Yamashiro, that is far less armoured and not a match for the PoW.

[rtrapasso]

Then (I think) you can turn it back into a transport TF.

I don't think you can change it into a transport TF as long as there are BBs present. However, once your TF is at its destination, you can reverse the process (transfer BBs out then convert to Transport TF).

There are some other weird things about converting from one TF type to another. For instance, you can't transfer CVs into a Surface Warfare TF, and you can't directly convert a Surface Warfare TF into a Air Combat TF. So, if you have a good leader (esp one paid for in PPs) in the Surface Warfare TF, and a crummy leader in a Air Combat TF, and the two TFs rendezvous at sea, you CAN'T get the carrier into the TF with the good commander. You have to transfer the ships from the surface warfare TF into the Air Combat TF - losing the good leader in the process...[8|][:@]

[spence]

Having already made the decision to commit Force Z and a 1/2 to combat against this enemy TF I get a message that my server has not been able to deliver my turn to my opp. Geez.

Aslo the BB Yamato should not be available at this stage of the war (Jan 1942) so this ship should be the Yamashiro, that is far less armoured and not a match for the PoW

In scenario 2 (Rising Sun) Yamato shows up at the end of December 41. The enemy TF does indeed contain the monster.

Scenario 2 is pretty interesting actually. The Allies start off with a very large VP handicap (I guess cause most bases on the map are Allied at start). The Japanese Player really has to get an amphibious Blitzkreig going. Other than a little lapse at Amboina he's been doing quite well with it too.
Force Z is a potent counterattack force though. Haruna got hammered pretty well in a daylight action at Kuching though it cost me a bunch of RN DDs (he lost 2 DDs sunk too) and those two old RN CLs. PoW and Repulse both came out of the fight with pretty light damage. I suspect Haruna was in a Bombardment TF. Certainly that was what it had done the turn before.
At any rate whenever my opp sends his next turn we'll all know what happened.

[Cpt Sherwood]

A picture is worth 1000 posts. [:D]

[AmiralLaurent]

Well, I learned something today. Thanks, guys. Now waiting for the result of Yamato vs PoW match.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

Well, I learned something today. Thanks, guys. Now waiting for the result of Yamato vs PoW match.

Yeah, what are the results? Inquiring minds want to know!! Also, because i suspect i am about to have an uncomfortably similar encounter in the very near future...

BTW- i checked last night: you CAN switch the Escort TF with BB back to Transport TF.[X(]

So, my apologies to Bradley7735!![&o][&o]

[spence]

ABDA COMMUNIQUE: 8 Jan, 1942 - For the 2nd day in a row, Allied a/c again attacked the large enemy naval force off the South coast of Borneo. The force, which now appears headed to Banjarmasin, seems to have been slowed by the previous days attacks. Two enemy battleships were damaged in today's attacks. Serious fires were seen burning on the Kongo class BB as our planes departed the area. In addition 2 enemy Zero type fighters were shot down over the TF.

Well, the expected surface action didn't happen yet. A bomb hit on an AP or AK the day before may have slowed the TF down. Its composition remains the same as best I can tell with transports escorted by Kongo and Yamato and probably some other smaller warships. Todays air attacks scored a 500 lb bomb hit on Kongo along with several 250 lbers. 5-6 250 lb bomb hits were scored on Yamato as well. The TF is one hex away from Banjarmasin now. A Dutch sub and a pair of refugee PT boats from the PI are there waiting for the TF to make its appearance. 6 Do24s and 9 PBYs with experience in the 80s are assigned night Naval Attack in Soerabaya and Madoein (or whatever). 11 Vildebeests are at Banjarmasin. 8 TIVs and 7 Swordfish are at Soerabaya along with assorted Blenheims, Martins and Hudsons. The level bombers are starting to show the strain of flying into the teeth of the IJN flak (lost 5 to flak along with 2 P-40s and a Brewster to the CAP of 4 A6Ms): their morale is now mostly in the teens-twenties; but the torpedo bombers, which haven't attacked at all yet, have morales in the 60-70s. Experience levels for the torpedo bomber squadrons are 67 (TIVs), 59 (Swordfish) and 55 (Vildebeests). 25 P-40s and some Brewsters are available for escort (the CAP was 4 A6Ms last turn and they must be showing the strain of LRCAP cause the exchange was only 3 Allies for 2 Zeros).

Meanwhile Force Z and a half appears to be undetected. Either that or my LRCAP of 10 P40s and 10 Brewsters kept the Jap LBA away. Fuel will be a concern if we don't bring the enemy TF to action this turn though. Just gonnq have to wait and see. [&:]

[rtrapasso]

Well, my similar attempt to attack the Yamato fizzled. I had the PoW, Repulse, and numerous cruisers and DDs attempt to stop multiple bombardment TFs from hammering Noumea. The KB is sitting 4 hexes from Noumea, and has been shooting down everything i can get into Noumea.

Anyway, the PoW and Repulse were ordered in, with cruisers and dds ordered to follow. The IJN showed up, but for some reason, only the Cruiser force engaged 2 IJN TFs (including the one with Yamato). For some reason, the TF commander decided to take them one twice. You guess can the results:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/22/42

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Night Time Surface Combat, near Noumea at 68,113

Japanese Ships
CA Myoko, Shell hits 1
CA Suzuya, Shell hits 1
CL Tama
DD Ariake
DD Hibiki
DD Sazanami
DD Fumizuki, Shell hits 1
DD Harukaze, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Hatakaze
DD Hakaze
DD Hokaze, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CA Louisville, Shell hits 1
CA Salt Lake City, Shell hits 1
CA San Francisco
CA Cornwall, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1
CL Dragon, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL Dauntless, Shell hits 2
CL Helena, Shell hits 1
CL Phoenix, Shell hits 1
DD Meredith
DD Grayson
DD Mugford, Shell hits 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Noumea at 68,113

Japanese Ships
CA Myoko
CA Suzuya, Shell hits 1
CL Tama
DD Ariake
DD Hibiki
DD Sazanami
DD Fumizuki, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Harukaze, on fire
DD Hatakaze
DD Hakaze, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Hokaze, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CA Louisville
CA Salt Lake City
CA San Francisco
CA Cornwall
CL Dragon, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL Dauntless
CL Helena
CL Phoenix
DD Meredith, Shell hits 1
DD Grayson
DD Mugford

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Noumea at 68,113

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Shell hits 1
CA Chokai, Shell hits 1
CA Mogami
CA Kumano
DD Nowaki, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Minegumo, Shell hits 6, on fire
DD Murasame, Shell hits 3
DD Yudachi, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Isonami

Allied Ships
CA Louisville, Shell hits 2
CA Salt Lake City, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CA San Francisco, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA Cornwall
CL Dragon, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CL Dauntless
CL Helena, Shell hits 2
CL Phoenix
DD Meredith, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
DD Grayson
DD Mugford, Shell hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Noumea at 68,113

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato
CA Chokai
CA Mogami
CA Kumano, Shell hits 1
DD Nowaki, on fire, heavy damage
DD Minegumo, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Murasame, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Yudachi, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Isonami

Allied Ships
CA Louisville, Shell hits 1
CA Salt Lake City, Shell hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA San Francisco, on fire, heavy damage
CA Cornwall
CL Dragon, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CL Dauntless, Shell hits 2
CL Helena, Shell hits 1
CL Phoenix, Shell hits 1
DD Grayson
DD Mugford
-------------

Also showing up for the party were 2 other IJN BBs and accompanying ships. Fortunately, the Cruiser TF commander decided not to take them on too.

Of course, next morning, in come the Kates (as well as Bettys) with strong Zero escort. The survivors got hammered.

Since i am at work, i haven't seen the replay yet. But i WOULD have liked to have seen all the forces engage.[:(]

[Fornadan]

Once the Colorado managed to get in 5 penetrating hits on the Yamato in a fierce night engagement at close range[8D]

The Japanese struck back like a wounded beast puting 3 18inchers into a poor Flush Deck destroyer. Doubt there was much left to sink

[spence]

The Japanese struck back like a wounded beast puting 3 18inchers into a poor Flush Deck destroyer. Doubt there was much left to sink

More than likely the 18.1 inchers fuzes didn't know anything had been hit and the shells simply passed right through that
4-piper. I believe that some CVE in the Battle Off Samar (Oct 44) experienced just such a hit as those you describe but the effect was as I describe.

[spence]

ABDA COMMUNIQUE: 9 JAN 1942: ABDA bombers again attacked the large enemy fleet South of Borneo scoring at least one more hit on a Kongo Class battleship. The force had previously attempted to land at Banjarmasin but was driven off by Allied naval forces.
In other action, the Japanese landed on Kai Is. Bombing attacks on the invasion force sank two transports. A large Japanese tanker was also set afire by Allied bombers near Pontianak, Borneo.

Once again the expected surface action did not occur. Apparently his TF moved to Banjarmasin but when Force Z and a 1/2 reacted it reacted back out of the hex. Subsequent bombing raids by both sides on each others ships did little damage. Kongo was hit by a 250 lber and Repulse by a 250 kg bomb which apparently caused no damage. At least now Force Z and a 1/2 has a bit of fuel. It is getting a little unhealthy around SE Borneo though. Don't think this most interesting surface action is going to come to pass after all.

[Tom Hunter]

I find that CV TFs will seek eachother out to have a battle but surface TFs do not behave the same way.

Which is kind of interesting because my reading on the second world war in the Pacific inclines me to believe that most Admirals were pretty gug ho about seeking action.

Regardless surface battles occur in a much more random way than air battles, so you cannot assume they will happen even if the TFs are near eachother.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

I find that CV TFs will seek eachother out to have a battle but surface TFs do not behave the same way.

Which is kind of interesting because my reading on the second world war in the Pacific inclines me to believe that most Admirals were pretty gug ho about seeking action.

Regardless surface battles occur in a much more random way than air battles, so you cannot assume they will happen even if the TFs are near eachother.

Well, as my mini-AAR showed, i had multiple TFs in the same hex as multiple IJN TFs - and in this case, only one of my TFs engaged the IJN (multiple times - ouch!)

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: spence

ABDA COMMUNIQUE: 9 JAN 1942: ABDA bombers again attacked the large enemy fleet South of Borneo scoring at least one more hit on a Kongo Class battleship. The force had previously attempted to land at Banjarmasin but was driven off by Allied naval forces.
In other action, the Japanese landed on Kai Is. Bombing attacks on the invasion force sank two transports. A large Japanese tanker was also set afire by Allied bombers near Pontianak, Borneo.

Once again the expected surface action did not occur. Apparently his TF moved to Banjarmasin but when Force Z and a 1/2 reacted it reacted back out of the hex. Subsequent bombing raids by both sides on each others ships did little damage. Kongo was hit by a 250 lber and Repulse by a 250 kg bomb which apparently caused no damage. At least now Force Z and a 1/2 has a bit of fuel. It is getting a little unhealthy around SE Borneo though. Don't think this most interesting surface action is going to come to pass after all.

Classical reaction of a transport TF. It is possible to hit it anyway by placing another surface TF in the probable retreat hex, but you will have to divide your forces.

[spence]

Well the battle between the Prince of Wales and the Yamato never came to pass for a variety of reasons. Yamato is apparently retiring now with a hole in her belly from an aerial torpedo. Along with whatever damage she accumulated from about 10 500 and 250 lb bomb hits I guess she's probably gonna take a back seat in the conquest of the DEI.

This is Scenario 2: Rising Sun. The date is 16 Jan 1942. It's a PBEM between Spence (Allies) and Mike Dixon (Japanese). Spence has started a bunch of games as Allies but has only made it near the end of January 42 in one game so far. Mike has only played as Allies before but has apparently progressed further in those endeavors.

At present the score is roughly 12300 (Allies) to 3700 (Japanese). The Allies start off with a pretty big handicap in this scenario. Mike has done pretty well so far in sinking ships and advancing in Malaya, the PI and the DEI. He is at the moment invading Balikpapan, the last Allied held base in Borneo. Menado, Kendari, and Makassar on Celebes have fallen as has Amboina. He's pretty much occupied all the bases on the North coast of New Guinea. He's captured all of Mindanao except Davao. He's captured all of Luzon except Bataan and Manila. He's occupied most of the ungarrisioned islands/bases in the PI as well. He's conquered all of Malaya except Georgetown and Singapore. In fact he pulled off a regular "Blitzkreig" cutting off and destroying 2 brigades and a base force at Kuantan. At the moment his army is in Johore Bharu resting before crossing into Singapore. However his forces have so far been pretty much halted outside Rangoon and Hong Kong holds out forlornly in his rear.

In naval action the Allies have had one brief and in the end futile moment of glory when PoW, Repulse and others broke into the invasion fleet (empty) at Amboina and put 10 transports under the water. In another battle between PoW/Repulse and a Japanese Surf TF a victory of sorts was obtained. HIJMS Kongo was heavily damaged and 3 DDs sunk. But the cost was high: 2 old CLs and several DDs sunk.

Though the Japanese advance has been rapid it appears most of his major ground formations have been committed already and he has yet to pick any of the real plums (there must be significant VP bonuses for places like Singapore, Soerabaya, Manila, etc but I haven't checked the manual to find out if the info's in there or not).

In any case I am focusing on the defense of Java. The supply situation is very good there right now. Significant reinforcements have arrived and are digging in.
The experience levels of my squadrons are getting fairly good. Mike has been pretty good at advancing under a cover of LRCAP but the strain on his A6M2 squadrons is starting to show: A2A between opposing fighters coming out at close to even in several recent instances.

The Kido Butai is enroute the theater[:(]; ETA unknown (reinforcements +/-15).
That's going to make things really hard on me. Once it arrives my squadrons are likely to be wiped out whatever naval forces remain will do best to just stay out of the way. I won this game decisively vs the AI but it will be interesting to see how it turns out vs a very competent human player.