Use of LCI(G)

[tsimmonds]

Hey, who knows, maybe he has just been christmas e-shopping; a PM doesn't cost much[;)]

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

1. Yes, it was well worth it.
2. Probably, the LCI(R) doesn't work either (the LCI(G) main gun is a rocket anyway).

You can get around around this issue by:
a. Put a larger ship in the TF to absorb the CD fire. This is explointing the routines a bit, but frankly, everyone does it.
b. Don't include the LCI(G)s into your TF to begin with.
d. If they weren't in game to begin with, no one would have missed them, so just leave them in port.

Frankly, I believe this MIGHT have something to do with the fact the rockets have a penetration value of 50, but an EFFECT (and anti-armor/anti-soft) value of 0. I can bump of the effect and attack ratings of the rockets, to see if that helps at all. But it could be that the LCI(G)s are simply throwing dandilions at the shore batteries.

Then again, it could be that the routine is coded for a round of naval combat when unloading, and because of the LCI(G)s, an extra round (attack by them) is included (thus endagnering the tranports 2x). But again, I can't see the code, so more than likely, I'm just talking out of my ass (which is actually always the case).

But I will try to run a test tonight, after bumping up the "boom!" rating of the rockets to see what happens.

-F-

Try it in a TF of nothing but the LCI(G)'s and see what happens.

[Feinder]

Yeah, will do that tonight, after turns.

But be aware that LCI(G) have a 0 capacity. Will try it in an invasion TF, they'll get shot up, but will be interested to see if they're shooting back (since no troops, would confirm it's not the Marines that are doing the damage). Will also try to put them in a bombardment TF, to see if that's useful.

-F-

[Feinder]

I created 3 TFs. One with 10 LCI(G). One with LCI(M). And one with LCI(R).

The LCI(x) TFs would NOT land by themselves.

With no capacity, and thus no troops to land, the TFs would not move within range of the surface guns (altho they would stay put with patrol).

That being the case, Adm. Nimitz himself (Centpac), was loaded onto a single LCI, and included in the invastion TFs. I used an all support unit, in order to minimize casualties to Japan via ground combat...


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/09/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coastal Guns at Woleai, 57,72, firing at TF 1087
TF 1087 troops unloading over beach at Woleai, 57,72


135 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
Allied Ships
LCI LCI-62, Shell hits 26, on fire, heavy damage (sunk)
LCI(G) LCI-61, Shell hits 13, on fire, heavy damage (sunk)


Allied ground losses:
146 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Woleai

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 1876 troops, 56 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 0 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles


===

It was messy. Enemy LCU was unhurt, and Nimitz is now a POW.



Blah

Blah

Blah.

changed lots of stuff, including forcing them into a custom bombardment TF. Spent about 3 hours on this. Nothing worked, until...

Changed type of weapons from "rockets" to naval guns (since we know that naval guns damage facilities). This might be problematic, because now they can fire ship-to-ship. I also upped the ammo, incase they didn't like firing with only 1 ammo point.

Also had to change the type to "DD", appearently the type "Landing Craft xx" don't fire back.

After doing all that, this is what I got.

Code: Select all

 AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/09/44
 
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Naval bombardment of Woleai, at 57,72 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
  
 Japanese aircraft
 no flights
  
 Japanese aircraft losses
 F1M2 Pete: 2 destroyed
 H8K Emily: 1 destroyed
  
 186 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
 Allied Ships
 DD LCI(G)-77, Shell hits 40,  on fire,  heavy damage
 DD LCI(G)-76, Shell hits 31,  on fire,  heavy damage
 DD LCI-70, Shell hits 18,  on fire,  heavy damage
 DD LCI-69, Shell hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage
 DD LCI-68
 DD LCI-67
 DD LCI-66
 DD LCI-65
 DD LCI-64
 DD LCI-61
  
 Japanese ground losses:
 102 casualties reported
 Guns lost 2
  
 Airbase hits 63
 Airbase supply hits 25
 Runway hits 582
 Port hits 10
 Port fuel hits 2
 Port supply hits 1
  
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Naval bombardment of Woleai, at 57,72 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
  
 46 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
 Allied Ships
 DD LCI(M)-664, Shell hits 4,  on fire,  heavy damage
 DD LCI(M)-660
 DD LCI(M)-659
 DD LCI(M)-658
 DD LCI(M)-633
 DD LCI(M)-632
 DD LCI(M)-631
 DD LCI(M)-630
 DD LCI(M)-588, Shell hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage
 DD LCI(M)-582
  
 Airbase hits 1
 Airbase supply hits 2
 Runway hits 23
  
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Naval bombardment of Woleai, at 57,72 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
  
 51 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
 Allied Ships
 DD LCI(R)-337
 DD LCI(R)-231, Shell hits 19,  on fire,  heavy damage
 DD LCI(R)-230
 DD LCI(R)-226
 DD LCI(R)-225
 DD LCI(R)-224
 DD LCI(R)-74
 DD LCI(R)-73
 DD LCI(R)-72
 DD LCI(R)-71
  
 Japanese ground losses:
 79 casualties reported
 Guns lost 3
  
 Airbase hits 8
 Airbase supply hits 1
 Runway hits 189
 Port hits 4
 Port supply hits 2
  
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Naval bombardment of Woleai, at 57,72 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
  
 50 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
 Allied Ships
 DD LCI-68
 DD LCI-67, Shell hits 36,  on fire,  heavy damage
 DD LCI-66
 DD LCI-65
 DD LCI-64
 DD LCI-61
  
 Japanese ground losses:
 26 casualties reported
  
 Airbase hits 7
 Runway hits 99
 Port hits 25
 Port fuel hits 12
 Port supply hits 46
  
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Naval bombardment of Woleai, at 57,72 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
  
 157 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
 Allied Ships
 DD LCI(M)-660
 DD LCI(M)-659
 DD LCI(M)-658
 DD LCI(M)-633, Shell hits 3,  on fire,  heavy damage
 DD LCI(M)-632, Shell hits 38,  on fire,  heavy damage
 DD LCI(M)-631
 DD LCI(M)-630, Shell hits 45,  on fire,  heavy damage
 DD LCI(M)-582, Shell hits 5,  on fire,  heavy damage
  
 Runway hits 2
 Port fuel hits 1
  
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Naval bombardment of Woleai, at 57,72 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
  
 108 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
 Allied Ships
 DD LCI(R)-337
 DD LCI(R)-230
 DD LCI(R)-226
 DD LCI(R)-225
 DD LCI(R)-224
 DD LCI(R)-74
 DD LCI(R)-73, Shell hits 37,  on fire,  heavy damage
 DD LCI(R)-72, Shell hits 33,  on fire,  heavy damage
 DD LCI(R)-71
  
 Japanese ground losses:
 53 casualties reported
 Guns lost 1
  
 Airbase hits 2
 Airbase supply hits 2
 Runway hits 48
 Port hits 12
 Port fuel hits 1
 Port supply hits 15
  
 
 

The base was basically wrecked. AF and Port at 90 - 100 damage. The two enemy LCUs were at 75+ disruption. They had SOME units disabled/destroyed, but not really that many. But I expect the disruption is the key.

Obviously, you can't add them into Bombardment TFs (altho maybe so, I changed their type to DD). But I think that was the critical element. I'll start backing things out (like putting ammo back to 1 etc.), to validate that the TYPE is what it probiting them from firing.

I can test some more "sometime"...

But the short of it, LCI(x) are only targets. They do absolutely nothing for your TF.
-F-

[Yamato hugger]

Sounds like something they ment to put in, and never got around to finishing it.

[Feinder]

Yep. I still gotta go back, and see which specific thing, or combination actually fixed it.

a. Was it the ammo increase? The rockets only start with one ammo. I wasn't sure if they weren't going to fire with only one ammo.
b. Was it because they re-classed as DDs? Does the LCI craft simply not return fire on landing?
c. Was it because I changed the type of gun from "rocket" to "naval gun"? If I change the type to "army gun", will it still fire at the LCUs, and NOT at ships (would be preferable).
d. Will they even fire in a transport TF? I only got them to actually work in a bombardment TF after changing their type to DD.

-F-

[Ron Saueracker]

Automatic Rant Pilot ON...

Basically it's the same damn scenario...they built a monster with probable good intentions and treated it like a 1st generation product that could be adequately tested in a short 6-12 month beta period. Having a real Alpha instead of what passed as one would have helped too. To be fair to this game it needed some serious development time (not a few peoples efforts either ) and should still be considered in the beta stage. The condition of the product clearly proves this.

Automatic Rant Pilot OFF.

But.......if they could just fix a few more things that are serious issues like Land Combat cancers, Air Combat cancers and Logistics cancers I think the community could fudge around with the editor to get the myriad of little details working acceptably on their own. Then it would be passable and would not be the balancing act between pleasure and pain, enjoyment and dread.

Despite this it sure takes up alot of my spare time, mainly tramping around here (unfortunately for many on the boards, eh[;)]) and the odd PBEM before it self detonates in a morass of design issues. Entertaining despite it all.

[Dereck]

Copy of a PM I was sent back in September concerning LCI rocket range. Not sure if anybody here has tried this or not.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RE: LCI Rocket Range
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To get them to work almost all the time I had to increase the range to that of a US 5"/38 gun. The same ones used on most US DDs. I know it's totally unhistoric and unrealistic but these were very specialized ships. I tried 20mm and 40mm ranges and had limited success in them being effective. You can only put them in transport TFs not surface or bombardment TFs. One thing I haven't tested is if they " can" be fired during surface combat. It might be a shock if your invasion TF gets intercepted by a surface TF and all the sudden a ton of 5" rockets show up on the surface fight screen.

I've been testing and exploring these ships from almost the beginning. The mods say "work as designed" and fail to do anything about it. A simple test show it all. In the tutorial create an invasion TF composed only of LSTs and these support ships, no Destroyers or anything else. Then go invade Guam. Don't use Siapan or Tinian as Siapan is way to heavily defended and Tinain is a walk over. Note the results (lots of death to the invader). Next restart the tutorial and this time substitute DDs for all the support ships. The casualties may be high but nowhere near as high as with only the support ships. If historically these ships were such crap they never would have made so many of them.

[Feinder]

The first tweak I did was to increase the range to 15k (device still was type rocket, and ship was still type LCI(x)). The range increase didn't help me. But we'll see.

Thanks for the tip.

-F-

[Desertdaddy]

Wow, someone actually remembered my posts about landing support craft not working.

Feinder, you have been conducting almost the same tests I did many months ago and have received the same results and discovered a few new theories; like the 2 rounds of surface to surface combat. The problem may be more complex in the end then just increasing range. The rockets are coded as surface to surface (the only weapons in the game that are), they only have a single ammo round and are very short range. The surface to surface rocket routine may never have been completed. The single ammo may be causing the ship not to fire because it needs to keep a few rounds left for self defense (BBs in bombard TF never shoot when down to 3 ammo rounds) and I don’t believe the game models the run in to the beach at all. No mater if your beaching LSTs in the first wave or unloading your APAs and going in on LVTs, the defender shots at all the same.

Without beating this horse any more, I gave up on the entire subject many months ago when, the powers that be, decided other bugs were more important. I still play the game and enjoy it very much.

The entire ground combat routines are not this game’s best selling point. But, if you have a genuine interest in the WW2 pacific war, this game is a must have.

I haven’t stopped my invasions at all; just never use landing support ships. Park them someplace out of the way. Flesh out your invasion TFs with DDs and CLs. They will add fire to suppress the defenders reducing landing casualties. Now if only the powers that be would allow BBs to be put into invasion TFs…

[el cid again]

Given that even shelling by battleship guns didn't effectively surpress properly dug in units,

the main effect of rocket landing craft may have been psychological in the first place.

Do you really think NON armor piercing 5 inch rockets damage things 14 and 16 inch shells do not?

I am going to note this series of complaints when looking for slots to add real combat ships for the allies in.