Sub Question

[Mike Carroll]

Many of my subs are failing to launch torpedoes. They are making a run and then a message comes up that says "Unable to safely get in position to launch torpedo" or something like that. We have SUB Doctrine ON.

I am sure this is not a bug because of the message, but what factors cause this? This is mostly happening in coastal hexes or port hexes (size 1 ports). Maybe there needs to be a Tutorial on Sub Ops of the 20's.

[Helpless]

This is because I care of my convoys [:)]...

But seriously I think the problem is that Allies doctrine applies on all kind of ships, while Japanese doesn't shoot cargo vessels...

[Mike Carroll]

Well eventually I will shoot. I did this last turn at Wake. But all my subs near Luzon are too chicken to try it[:D]

I find it interesting when you read the AAR's, that one side has good ASW and subs, while the other side does not. And it is not always the Japanese or the US. I have to think about what I am doing wrong.

[Helpless]

oh yeah... this turn you finally scored against my AP... just guess how much damage it did? [:D]

[Tankerace]

Part of it is the ship (in open waters) can be zig zagging or outrunning the submarine.

In coastal hexes, it could be that the water is too shallow for the submarine to successfully close submerged, or it could also be that the commander, while making contact, decides not to risk his submarine by making what he considers an unseuccesful attack, either due to terrain or to escorts.

I may do that tutorial, shouldn't take more than a day or two to work out.

[Fallschirmjager]

Another problem I am finding is that subs refuse to fight on the surface. This is simply not realistic for 1920s naval warfare.
I have more surface attacks in WitP than in WPO.

The surface combat routine for subs needs to be reworked. Perhaps the more aggressive and 'worse' a sub commnader is the greater chance he has of fighting on the surface and getting 'suprised' by a Q ship or DD.
As it is now if a single ship is a task force is armed with anything above an AA machine gun a sub will not surface for an attack.

[Tankerace]

I had Mike work on that, he said he did it so that "Subs will be more inclined to make surface attacks on merchant vessels".

If there is more than one, and it is not a merchant, it won't attack. If they won't attack period on the surface (which I have NOT seen), then it needs to be tweaked.

[Fallschirmjager]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

I had Mike work on that, he said he did it so that "Subs will be more inclined to make surface attacks on merchant vessels".

If there is more than one, and it is not a merchant, it won't attack. If they won't attack period on the surface (which I have NOT seen), then it needs to be tweaked.

I did some testing and unless I am seeing something abnormal. They will not attack a TF that has single gun in it.
i.e. if any vessel in the TF has a single gun above a AA machine gun the sub will only use torpedos.
This makes it basicly impossible to kill a sub since ASW is useless.
Seems to me that aggressive or flat out dumb sub skippers would chance a surface attack even if they had a few 3-5 inch guns in the convoy to defend it.
I guess these is a fine line you will have to try and balence here.
If the TF has a few ships up to DD class I would think you would program it to where subs that are agressive or have bad commnaders would go for a surface attack.
Might also increase this chance during night turns since it is harder to make out ship class and a commander might think he has a better shot at getting away with an attack.
Cautious or 'good' commanders would be more timid or better at differentiating warships or Q ships from regular merchant vessles.

This IMO is the best way to tackle the issue. Most others might not agree with me. And I have seen no one else bring up the issue so I may be the only one concerned.

As is now subs are very powerful. I am not trying to completly render them ineffective. Even early primative subs were able to sink LARGE warships. This should be in WPO.
But so far I am seeing most of my naval kills through sub action.
This is in large part due to the fact that subs never give themselves the chance to be destroyed by attacking on the surface.

[Pkunzipper]

I think subs attacks on surface shouldn't be done if the enemy ships is armed with a 3/4" gun or more...
I agree with you that subs were really hard to sink if submerged, so why a skipper should attack on surface risking of being damaged even by an AP??

As you said it could be a commander skill/aggressivness factor, but I'd be cautious on changes...
Subs of that period had very slow submerged speed, so the sub-combat routine should keep track of sub position at the beginning of the battle:

Code: Select all

 POSITION OF THE SUB O TF COURSE   CHANCE OF AN ATTACK   ATTACK TYPE (% should be affected by sub speed/TF speed)
 Sub is in Front of enemy TF            very good        90% submerged attack.
 Sub is Front-Right / Front-Left        good             75% submerged attack.
 Sub is Center-Right/Center-Left        average          40% submerged attack.
 Sub is Rear-Right / Rear-Left          low              15% submerged attack.
 Sub is Rear                            very low         0% submerged attack.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 MODIFIER:                         ACTION:
 If Sub max speed > TF speed       + Chance of an attack, + Chance of a submerged attack
 If Sub max speed < TF speed       - Chance of an attack, - Chance of a submerged attack
 Cautious sub commander            - Chance of a submerged attack, he may decide not to attack if he has to do a surfaced attack 
 Aggressive sub commander          + Chance of a submerged attack
 Good sub commander                + Chance of an attack, + Chance of a submerged attack
 Escort / armed merchant detected  - Chance of an attack, he may decide not to attack if he has to do a surfaced attack
 

Every sub commander should try to attack submerged (it's the main strength of the sub!!) until forced not to do so!

Is this implementable in one of the next patches?
Do people here agree on this table?

[jwilkerson]

I repeat my earlier vote from another thread ...

Don't change SUBs ( repeating - don't change subs !!! )

so why a skipper should attack on surface ... Every sub commander should try to attack submerged (it's the main strength of the sub!!) until forced not to do so!

This being said ... subs in WWI and WWII attacked on the surface as much as possible because it was more effective !!!

The most effective sub patrol of all time .. U35 ( patrol #4 I think ) sank 54 enemy ships with the firing of 4 torpedoes ( and of course many deck gun rounds ) ...

But both German and US skippers in WWII also learned to attack on the surface as much as possible .. because SPEED is a more important attack advantage ( at night ) than stealth ( in fact US subs had tough time attacking at night submerged due to not having a night capable periscope ).

And in WWI surface attacks against unarmed merchant ships was the RULE ... the exception was submerged attacks against warships.

Ideally merchant ships should start the game un-armed ... but gradually ( after a year or so ) should start gaining armament ...

But thus far, I am pleased with the sub/ASW model ... and repeat my vote ( Don't Change Subs in WPO !!! )

[Fallschirmjager]

I agree with you that subs were really hard to sink if submerged, so why a skipper should attack on surface risking of being damaged even by an AP??

Because it is in no way realistic and having it any other way is ahistorical.


Up until 1943 it was standerd for the Kriegesmarine to attack on the surface as it was for American forces.
Even if DD were present they would attack on the surface.
A convoy is a VERY and spread out formation. It can sometimes cover a few square miles of ocean.
Just because a sub surfaces does not mean every gun in the convoy can hit it.
There are probably instances where a sub can surface and launch an attack and then sumerge before DDs can even arrive on the scene.

If at all possible the code should be rewritten to provide to ways to check and see how good the commander is, how agressive he is, the number of escorts and the overall size of the convoy (this would determine the chances of a sub surfacing and attacking and no guns being able to fire back).
Ultimatly how good the commander is should be the ultimate factor is how good a sub is at attacking and getting away without harm.

The sub warfare code needs a serious overhaul. People can ask for a fantasy wargame if they wish but 1920s sub warfare is very well documented in terms of how it would have been fought. The doctrine is also well documented and as it is now in WPO is not followed at all.

[jwilkerson]

The sub warfare code needs a serious overhaul. People can ask for a fantasy wargame if they wish but 1920s sub warfare is very well documented in terms of how it would have been fought. The doctrine is also well documented and as it is now in WPO is not followed at all.

All things are relative ... after trying for 18 months to get any improvement for subs in WITP ... and seeing us now so close to perfect ( relatively ) ... I'm willing to call it good ... is anything truly perfect ? Probably not .. but again relatively speaking .. I'd beg for folks to find something else to work on besides subs in WPO ... I don't want to risk having it get broke worse !!!

And I've certainly never asked for a fantasy wargame ( on this forum ) .. we have to take what we get ... we don't much get what we ask for ... we get what we get ! And for my money .. we did get a fantasy for subs in WITP .. and we are much much closer to reality in WPO ... so again my vote is still to leave subs alone in WPO !

[pkpowers]

I vote for the sub overhaul also; the torpedoe hit % is tweaked a bit too high. In my Pac Jutland pbem game 1 to 3 capital ships are getting hit per day....it's out of control...I agree that ASW at that time is near to useless, but the subs are too accurate.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: pkpowers

I vote for the sub overhaul also; the torpedoe hit % is tweaked a bit too high. In my Pac Jutland pbem game 1 to 3 capital ships are getting hit per day....it's out of control...I agree that ASW at that time is near to useless, but the subs are too accurate.

If true then you may be right .. but I've been seeing warships driving through my subs over and over and not even getting attacked - or if getting attacked - not hitting - I think I've sunk one DD in 750 turns so far ... now success against merchants are running much higher ( as they should ). But would I agree that 1 to 3 capital ships per day ( on more than one day per month ) is high. Are these ships getting hit unescorted OBB by any chance ?

[Fallschirmjager]

Let me also add that I am not advocating that subs only use their gun on the surface. The torpedo is there most powerful weapon and should be used on the surface as much as possible.

[Mike Carroll]

Since I asked this question I have had 3 sub attacks happen. In 2 out of 3 my sub attacked with both guns and torpedoes. Guess I am not ready to say change anything until I have had more experience.

On the flip side my ASW really sucks. So far the Allies have had no ASW attacks and one MSW sunk doing ASW operations. The Japanese have made several very painful torpedo attacks on my warships. I have seemed to be focusing on cargo ships.

[pkpowers]

They are getting hit while being escorted (4 BB's and 4 DD's TF's)...also with ASW only TF's in same hex...

[Mike Carroll]

Well the MSW was in a ASW TF. My other warships a destroyer was Surface Combat (no ASW capability yet) and a wounded Light Cruiser.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: pkpowers

They are getting hit while being escorted (4 BB's and 4 DD's TF's)...also with ASW only TF's in same hex...

But some DDs have zero ASW strength - so we have to check that also ( I have 4 OBB running around with 4 DD .. and then I checked the ASW strength of the TF and it was "0" ... and I went Oops ! ... and went and found some "real" DDs !!!
)

[Helpless]

Actually that sub scoring varies a lot... sometimes it is just +2 sys +1 flt [:)] on absolutly unescorted TF.

And once I lost entire Recon Chutai on AK from single sub attack (3 torps) . And that was TF with >10 ASW raiting...

We do play with sub doctrine on. And so far I don't see any issues with subs. My "hopless" jap ASW even manage to get hits, almost every turn... [;)]