The Best and Worst for the Japanese

[GaryChildress]

If you had to do away with, say, 400 ship production points on the Japanese side, which building programs/ships would you halt or do away with? The reason I ask is that I'm thinking of adding a few more "what-ifs" to the Japanese building program and want to take away the corresponding tonnage from other programs. Obviously the Shinano is probably a favorite choice to get axed but what other projects could be replaced by better projects such as Akizuki class DDs which I think are probably some of the more useful ships the Japanese could have produced in larger numbers.

For that matter, also, what would be your choice for the best projects in the Japanese build queue with the most "bang for the buck"? If you could clone a few extra ships, which ones would you want--given existing limitations to building capacity?

Thanks for any input, [:)]

Gary

[Tristanjohn]

What-if #2193: I'd build 20 Essex-class carriers. For who's to say the Japanese could not well have finagled the secret plans and precious materials from our corrupt contractors and greedy suppliers back home?

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

What-if #2193: I'd build 20 Essex-class carriers. For who's to say the Japanese could not well have finagled the secret plans and precious materials from our corrupt contractors and greedy suppliers back home?

But, as I say, it would have to be within existing limitations to building capacity. The Japanese never could have started, let alone completed 20 or even 10 Essex class carriers.

[2ndACR]

Halt Shinano and maybe some of the useless Japanese subs and give the Japanese the 2 Taiho class CV's that were ordered in addition to the one they finished.

And the Shinano should have been able to give enough steel for 5-10 more good destroyers also.

[pasternakski]

Well, here we are in the fantasy realm that is WitP again. It wasn't so much the steel, it was the powerplants. Japanese shipbuilding was always short on the necessary wherewithal to drive anything across the water (kinda like Ted Kennedy).

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Halt Shinano and maybe some of the useless Japanese subs and give the Japanese the 2 Taiho class CV's that were ordered in addition to the one they finished.

And the Shinano should have been able to give enough steel for 5-10 more good destroyers also.

By "useless subs" I assume you mean the Ha subs which only have 2 torpedo tubes, or do you also mean the RO subs which have short range as well?

Actually I had something a little more ambitious in mind, perhaps going as far as cancelling the entire Yamato class altogether in favor of smaller more sensible warships.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Well, here we are in the fantasy realm that is WitP again.

Can you name a computer game that isn't "fantasy"?

[2ndACR]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Well, here we are in the fantasy realm that is WitP again. It wasn't so much the steel, it was the powerplants. Japanese shipbuilding was always short on the necessary wherewithal to drive anything across the water (kinda like Ted Kennedy).

Well, since he is designing a "mod", no one says you have to play the mod. So we can get as "fantasy" as we want.

Both the Ha and alot of those RO's. The Yamato's were pretty much built by wars start, so might as well keep the Yamato and the Musashi around. Plus I like them when I can get a good surface battle involving them.[:D]

The Japanese did order 2 Taiho's around late 41 or early 42, but cancelled them before they were even started. Only to have Midway sink most of their CV's and leave them scrambling for carriers.

[Alikchi2]

Seeing as the Japanese could have bought ten Takao CAs for what they spent on Yamato.. well, I know where I'd spend my money. [:)] Humongous resource hogs especially in a constrained economy like Japan's.

I'd drop Shinano, Musashi and Yamato. However! Yamato and Musashi were very close to completion on 12/7, so your new ships would arrive very early in the war or perhaps even before.

The Taihos was a beautiful ship, but expensive. Remember, the Japanese built Unryus during the war (which were basically repeats of the Hiryu design) because they were cheaper and easier to produce. My personal preference is still for more Taihos (possible names: Kuroho and Unho?), but if you want to get decks on the water fast Unryus might be your best bet.

One thing you could do to edge in a bit more capacity is kill the Ise "floatplane CV" conversions. Colossal waste of resources.

Those are just general wastes though. What ships are you thinking of adding? Some new ships will "cancel out" old ones. I.E. if you're planning on adding that big CLAA to the build queue, I'd drop Oyodo - not a terribly useful ship in any case (although pretty!).

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

If you had to do away with, say, 400 ship production points on the Japanese side, which building programs/ships would you halt or do away with? The reason I ask is that I'm thinking of adding a few more "what-ifs" to the Japanese building program and want to take away the corresponding tonnage from other programs. Obviously the Shinano is probably a favorite choice to get axed but what other projects could be replaced by better projects such as Akizuki class DDs which I think are probably some of the more useful ships the Japanese could have produced in larger numbers.

For that matter, also, what would be your choice for the best projects in the Japanese build queue with the most "bang for the buck"? If you could clone a few extra ships, which ones would you want--given existing limitations to building capacity?

Thanks for any input, [:)]

Gary

IRL, their best bet would probably have been some decent, long-legged, ASW ships to help get oil and materials back from SE Asia. Of course in the Game their PC's and other misc. garbage are very over-rated at ASW, so Unru's and Akitsuki's would be the most promising possibilities.

[CMDRMCTOAST]

I had built a lot of the heavies way ahead of schedule in mid
too late 43 and attacked ZETA16'S invasion force of 1 or 2
escorting carriers with 10+ of my CV'S only to have 590+ planes
per turn shot down by only 25 hellcats on cap..
"although not a single plane of his on attack is left either."
I then had too high tail it out of there with about 2 dozen total zekes left
and big empty ships that got great speed from the weight reduction..[:D]
Big waste of time and resources in my opinion as now I have to hide them
the rest of the game as they are useless untill I can load them with kamikazes
or risk the points when he sinks them with a few well placed butterballs
from the steam catapults..[X(]

[Sneer]

I'm not sure if I remember correctly
Taiho class used cruiser type powerplants and Unryu used DD type powerplants
considering that Unryus were much more probable

[Cpt Sherwood]

I am not sure if this fits into the "Best and Worst" area but I do remember Dunnigan and Nofi discussing that the Yamato and Musashi could have been better replaced with 2 or 3 Kaku type CVs. The Yamatos did not contribute much during the war but 2 or 3 more large CVs certainly would have. Even 2 more would have allowed the IJN to use its two smallest CVs in the PI area in early Dec 1942 which would have really wrecked havoc with both merchant and combat ships in the area. They would also have to have trained more aircrews.

[Daniel Oskar]

Playing the Japanese late war I never have enough destroyers/escorts. After US torpedoes become effective in 43 there is a high price to pay.

[Nikademus]

Building Unryu class CV's was economically the most feasible major class unit for Japan to build...but the problem of planes and pilots for them would reduce their value in the long run.

[skrewball]

What about Japanese prototype planes? did they have any axed designed that may have competed with the F6F or F4U? Because as stated before you can have a dozen extra carriers, but they would be rendered impotent in the first major air battle with the new American aircraft.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Building Unryu class CV's was economically the most feasible major class unit for Japan to build...but the problem of planes and pilots for them would reduce their value in the long run.

Well, since he is designing a "mod", no one says you have to play the mod. So we can get as "fantasy" as we want.

[Nikademus]

The Japanese built a number of 2nd generation planes that were competetive (except at high altitude) but the issue at that point was pilot training along with quality control. The Japanese obviously couldn't outbuild the US in terms of carrier hulls but they did complete or near complete a number of them (Taiho....Shinano, couple Unyru etc) but by war's end the survivors were white elephants with few aircraft and fewer qualified pilots.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Alikchi
What ships are you thinking of adding? Some new ships will "cancel out" old ones. I.E. if you're planning on adding that big CLAA to the build queue, I'd drop Oyodo - not a terribly useful ship in any case (although pretty!).

I'm thinking of adding the smaller CLAA which I did the art for. The massive 12 turret monster would probably be going overboard but the 6 turret one would be a little less the size of an Atanta CLAA, basically a DD leader and would take up fewer resources. Taking out Oyodo on the premise that the Japanese recognize an early need for AAA cruisers might be a good start as well.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Daniel Oskar

Playing the Japanese late war I never have enough destroyers/escorts. After US torpedoes become effective in 43 there is a high price to pay.

I was sort of thinking along the same lines, that introducing more DDs and such would be a better plan since late war carriers don't do the Japanese a great deal of good except add to the Allied VP score.

But perhaps a couple of Unryus' early on in the war instead of Yamato and Musashi would make things more interesting.