In-turn Game info availability

[scout1]

I was wondering what, if any, in turn game info would be available "outside" of the game.
I'll be the first to admit, I don't have much/any background in this game, but it is a "BIG" game. I've been playing WitP over the last 15 months or so (another BIG game, but different) and one of the common complaints is the amount of info provided during a players turn without ANY means of using it offline. Players are literally keeping huge notebooks filled with handwritten notes about such info, which IMHO is bogus for a computer wargame. Now WitP does provide 4 txt files with some info that a couple of mod's were developed (very sweet) to allow the player to utilize the info in a much more human friendly, at your own pace mode. Unfotunately, the info provided is very limited in scope.

Several players have requested an export utility (to a common format, *csv works well)
to permit us to extract the info and use in player developed tools or just play around with it in Excel. It would be very handy in the production/logistics end of things in WitP. Unfortunately, I doubt they'll ever incorporate it at this point, though their support for the game has been pretty good.

Bottomline : Was wondering if
a) This would be useful here (from the players who do know the game)
b) Has there been any discussion of this and/or thought of providing this
c) Will the game have some other means to achieve the same goal

[Alexander Seil]

WitP and CWiF are two very different things. For starters, CWiF's (and MWiF's, if it keeps the better parts of the engine) had a friendly, intuitive interface and you don't have to dig in order to find out what you are looking at (this is a not so concealed jab at WitP's awful on-map display of unit information). Besides, the scale is very different. WiF is a corps/army scale wargame and the amount of information you have to deal with is significantly smaller. If you want a computer game comparison - Hearts of Iron 2 is, overall, more information intensive than CWiF (and I never played the boardgame).

EDIT:
To make it more clear, let's put it this way - this game simply doesn't require one to keep any notes outside of the game because everything is more or less obvious.

[Mziln]

Since this is a computerized version of one of the old “Giant” board games. Some of the informational displays do not work for me (i.e.: the factory/resource distribution/usage display). So I created an Excel spreadsheet to compensate for this. I sorry, but I think it will be up to the individuals to supply their own additional documentation to meet their own particular needs. On the bright side you could use the forums here to offer your work to other players.

[X(] I can only hope the MWiF resource and factory locatations do not get relocated to much. [X(]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: scout1

I was wondering what, if any, in turn game info would be available "outside" of the game.
I'll be the first to admit, I don't have much/any background in this game, but it is a "BIG" game. I've been playing WitP over the last 15 months or so (another BIG game, but different) and one of the common complaints is the amount of info provided during a players turn without ANY means of using it offline. Players are literally keeping huge notebooks filled with handwritten notes about such info, which IMHO is bogus for a computer wargame. Now WitP does provide 4 txt files with some info that a couple of mod's were developed (very sweet) to allow the player to utilize the info in a much more human friendly, at your own pace mode. Unfotunately, the info provided is very limited in scope.

Several players have requested an export utility (to a common format, *csv works well)
to permit us to extract the info and use in player developed tools or just play around with it in Excel. It would be very handy in the production/logistics end of things in WitP. Unfortunately, I doubt they'll ever incorporate it at this point, though their support for the game has been pretty good.

Bottomline : Was wondering if
a) This would be useful here (from the players who do know the game)
b) Has there been any discussion of this and/or thought of providing this
c) Will the game have some other means to achieve the same goal

CSV files are my preferred method of making both static (e.g., names of units, unit strengths) and dynamic (e.g., units in production, losses last turn) game data available to players offline.

I would like the game to provide you with the information you need as you play it. There might be some analysis routines you want to run yourself (e.g., average strength of enemy corps in Russia) that aren't provided. That is simply because the list of analyses people might want is potentially infinite.

I have posted requests earlier (back in September) asking for what information players would like to have at their fingertips and I have a list that I gathered at that time. I expect it to grow during playtest. Improving the interface is important to me. Though some players of CWIF had few complaints with it, there were others who simply gave up on the game because the interface was too difficult/confusing.

WIF is a very complicated game with almost every fundamental rule having a dozen or more exceptions to it. The challenge for the MWIF interface is to let novices play/learn it without feeling lost. That is not going to be easy. I never expected it to be. It will take a lot of work.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Since this is a computerized version of one of the old “Giant” board games. Some of the informational displays do not work for me (i.e.: the factory/resource distribution/usage display). So I created an Excel spreadsheet to compensate for this. I sorry, but I think it will be up to the individuals to supply their own additional documentation to meet their own particular needs. On the bright side you could use the forums here to offer your work to other players.

[X(] I can only hope the MWiF resource and factory locatations do not get relocated to much. [X(]

I would be interested in how you would like to have the factory/resource distribution/usage information presented. You mentioned a spreadsheet layout?

[scout1]

Steve,

I do have experience in other "monster" games, but not this one. My general experience is that you'll never be able to provide all the information in a format that is convinent/useful to everyone. I realize that WitP is probably far different, but there is alot of information that isn't available, unless the player (ALL players) watch the combat replay, etc .... So basically the information availability becomes an issue as to how you
"utilize" the game. Some watch combat animations for specific info, others do not, but unfortunately, give up access to "vital" info not available otherwise. Long and short of it, is the total info should be availabe regardless of the players choice as to how he/she watches/tracks a turn. May/may not have any relevance for WiF, but just thought I'd pass this item on based on on-going experience ......

[c92nichj]

.: the factory/resource distribution/usage display

I complained about this one a long while ago aswell. But as I understand it Steve has the resource transportation high on his agande as something that have to be fixed.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Ah, I didn't realize you were asking about game replay info. This is from a post from back in early November.
---------------------
Here is the first section of the 28 page document I have written on the game record log. The other pages list all the record log entry types. There are over 450 unique entries for MWIF. If you are desperate for something to read, I am willing to send a copy of the document in PDF format to anyone who asks (Steve@PatternDiscovery.us).

===============
Game Record Log and History File
(as of October 9, 2005)

I Overview

MWIF maintains a record log of all events that change the game state. Each record log entry is a text string, comma delimited, that records an atomic level of detail. For example, “E1512, ULMv, T1000100, P2, U199, H2010, H2011" records Entry 1512, where Player 2 Moves the Land Unit 199 from Hex 2010 to Hex 2011, as part of transaction T1000100. There are over 450 different entry types/codes that control all modifications to the starting game state. In aggregate, the record log entries progress the starting game position incrementally through the entire game to the final game position.

The record log serves as a repository for the history of a game and can be used to replay a game in its entirety. In combination with saved game files, an individual turn or impulse can be replayed. Note that each entry contains sufficient information to retract (undo) an action. What this means is that an entire game can be played backwards, starting with the end of the game and receding in reverse to the starting position. As an additional function, the record log is used for debugging the game.

Record log entries are processed by the record log entry processor (RLEP) which, for PBEM games, validates entries received through email and from eMWIF. For other modes of play, all entries are generated by MWIF itself and do not need validation. The RLEP is responsible for keeping the copies of the game residing on different computers synchronized. For security’s sake, the record log file is kept encrypted during play. After a game has been completed, it is decrypted for replay and after-action reports. During a game, a player has the ability to replay the game from his own perspective, but can not see what the opponent has done (or at least no more than he can normally see during a game).

Note that saving and restoring games is not part of the record log. Because different players can save the game on different computers, it is impossible to guarantee that the record logs are identical if they contain entries about saving games. However, each saved game contains the name of its associated record log and the most recent entry # in the record log at the time it was saved. In particular, the PBEM system expects players to have saved games that are out of sync on different computers. It uses the record log entries to bring each game up-to-date as play progresses through email.
======================

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Since this is a computerized version of one of the old “Giant” board games. Some of the informational displays do not work for me (i.e.: the factory/resource distribution/usage display). So I created an Excel spreadsheet to compensate for this. I sorry, but I think it will be up to the individuals to supply their own additional documentation to meet their own particular needs. On the bright side you could use the forums here to offer your work to other players.

[X(] I can only hope the MWiF resource and factory locatations do not get relocated to much. [X(]

I would be interested in how you would like to have the factory/resource distribution/usage information presented. You mentioned a spreadsheet layout?

Resources/Production window

Lists “Saved Oil”, “Trade Oil”, “Unused Oil”, “Production Oil”, “Saved Resources”, “Trade Resources”, “Unused Resources”, “Production Resources” and their destination. It also lists the factories. This is needless and cumbersome to me.

All I need to see is each factory and the oil or resource going there, where I am saving my oil, and the “Trade Resources”.

I don’t need to see a list of all the available factories if they are already shown with allocated oil/resources.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Mziln

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I would be interested in how you would like to have the factory/resource distribution/usage information presented. You mentioned a spreadsheet layout?

Resources/Production window

Lists “Saved Oil”, “Trade Oil”, “Unused Oil”, “Production Oil”, “Saved Resources”, “Trade Resources”, “Unused Resources”, “Production Resources” and their destination. It also lists the factories. This is needless and cumbersome to me.

All I need to see is each factory and the oil or resource going there, where I am saving my oil, and the “Trade Resources”.

I don’t need to see a list of all the available factories if they are already shown with allocated oil/resources.

I just went through most of the code about factories. Very messy. I rewrote a bunch of it and I need to test it to make sure I didn't break anything. However, I noticed that a lot of the code is designed to directly support the window you referenced. I'll probably redo the whole thing from scratch.

Let me see if I understand what you would like. I am thinking that I might have a few basic columns on the left and additional optional columns that can be toggled on or off. For example, the basic columns would be: (1) factory location, (2) where it is getting its resource from, (3) whether that resource is oil, (4) saved oil points (and where they are), and (5) resource/build points sent/received due to trade relations. The last two would not be columns but somehow presented.

Optional columns would list resources that couldn't get to a factory, factories that are sitting idle, saved build points, etc.

[Glen Felzien]

Would a player be able to "direct" the path of resource(s) to factory from this display? Or is this done in a different area?

[scout1]

Steve,

This sounds like some of the items I was using WitP as an example. They have a number of screens that provide a listing of bases, or factories, or resources that can be sorted. At times, these are helpful. One thing that these lack though is any summary for totals. Thus the big picture is somewhat hard to see. For example, I can sort all the factories producing Zero's which shows location and the number at each location. Only problem (for me anyways) is that there is no way to show the TOTAL number of Zero's being produced unless I get out my calculator and add them up individually.

They could change the code to do this (unlikely for WitP), or just permit "in_turn" game info to be exported via csv files and let the players have at it.

Again, not sure how applicable this is for WiF, but monster games tend to be troublesome presenting all the data available that covers all the players needs. csv files would permit a great many options.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Glen Felzien

Would a player be able to "direct" the path of resource(s) to factory from this display? Or is this done in a different area?

I haven't thought about this at all. But that doesn't stop me from proposing an idea that is all of 7 seconds old.

(1) Work from the global map, since that is the only scale that lets you view the entire Atlantic Ocean at once.

(2) Have a second form open that lists factories and resources in two adjacent columns.

(3) Factories that already have a resource routed to it have said resource positioned next to it (both in the same row) and connected with a line (or some such)

(4) Factories and resources unconnected should be obvious.

(5) Select either a factory or a resource.

(5A) If they are already connected, then the route for that connection is shown on the global map by drawing in the railline, spotlighting any ports involved, and marking the sea areas being used. The player has the option to cancel the connection.

(5B) If the factory/resource is not connected, the player can select which resource/factory to connect it to. And then click on a series of ports and sea areas to make the connection.

I see this as all the ports either the factory of resource can reach being highlighted first. All sea areas with available convoys are indicated with a count of how many are in each sea area so you can see potential bottlenecks. If there is only one choice (only one port that connects to a sea area containing an available convoy) then the program automatically chooses that port. This follows one of my fundamental laws when playing speed chess: "when there is only one choice, take what is offered". At points where a decision has to be make, the player chooses the route. This route can be created working from both end points towards the middle until they link.

The player can review his existing connections from the previous turn and just let them stand as is. If the pipeline has been disrupted, then the player can reconnect it using a different route. The player can also revise routes to avoid search and seizure or for any other reason. Clicking on a port from the global map might be hard (tiny dot) but there are many ways to make that easier too.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: scout1
Steve,

This sounds like some of the items I was using WitP as an example. They have a number of screens that provide a listing of bases, or factories, or resources that can be sorted. At times, these are helpful. One thing that these lack though is any summary for totals. Thus the big picture is somewhat hard to see. For example, I can sort all the factories producing Zero's which shows location and the number at each location. Only problem (for me anyways) is that there is no way to show the TOTAL number of Zero's being produced unless I get out my calculator and add them up individually.

They could change the code to do this (unlikely for WitP), or just permit "in_turn" game info to be exported via csv files and let the players have at it.

Again, not sure how applicable this is for WiF, but monster games tend to be troublesome presenting all the data available that covers all the players needs. csv files would permit a great many options.

Far fewer units in production in WIF. The board game uses a production circle since units have different build times based on the type of unit (all large naval units take 2 years). Visually, the production circle works well but I think it can be improved on for MWIF. Not that I have any ideas about that yet.

There are 64+ units types and while each major power usually concentrates on certain ones, there is almost always a wide diversity. The staggered entry times add an element of confusion too. You might have built 4 infantry, 2 fighters, a bomber, 3 pilots, and 2 armor, but they are going to arrive as reinforcements in different months. Even within a unit type it can vary: some fighters take 2 turns, some take 3. The information the player wants to have at hand during production (and during combat) is the number of each type he owns relative to his opponent. This can be focused more narrowly on a theater of operations or more broadly to include allies. The burn rate per turn (destroyed units) is also crucial.

I like this kind of problem (how to present complex information clearly). It is something to puzzle over in the next couple of months and try out various solutions. See what works and what doesn't.

[Glen Felzien]

I like your 7 second ideas. lol

It has been my experience that many players have had to review, every turn, the number of resources they had verus their factories. Then they had to ensure that their conveys were appropriately placed each turn. This can be very time consuming. Your idea would help reduce that time to showing them what they "own/occupy" and what routes are best to link the two. This in turn can help determine when convoys need to be placed or rerouted and what links have been cut do to naval actions or over land lines of communications cut.

Please note that I have never played Convoys in Flames just the 4th and 5th editions rules to a very large extent.