Did someone pork the CHS data?

[Ron Saueracker]

Hi guys. Been playing the latest CHS build with Adm Halsey (Bill W) and have noticed a whack of stuff that was correct before but is now way off. I mentioned the CL Montpelier arriving 1 year early. This is going on across the board I bet because a number of ships etc are now suspect at this very early stage.

VP-9 shows up as a Do24k.
F4-Lightning has some Jap plane's profile.
P38-F now has no art profile...just sky.
Fletcher Class DDs Philip and Renshaw are arriving Jan 42.
Benson Class Bailey arrives Feb 42.
Benson Class Laffey arrives April 42.
Benson Class Woodworth arrives May 42.

So, I don't know what happened but someone dropped their falsies into the soup.[8D]

[Mistmatz]

Could you specify which version of CHS you refer to? Is it the released 1.06 or some newer beta stuff?

[Ron Saueracker]

The latest available on Spooky's site 1.6 I guess.

[el cid again]

It says in the documentation, and in forum archives, that many ships and planes were made available early. Joe said to expect come JFB complaints with the next release re planes moving back in time to more historical availability dates. [So far, this has not happened - JFBs have praised my listed data - but maybe they have not yet noticed they won't get the Ki-Superplane so soon!] The won't let me do ships - SO they won't be fixed. But in RHS the ships will no longer have:

grossly falsified armor
grossly falsified ranges
grossly early arrival dates.

RHS will follow the release of CHS by some days. I cannot build on a foundation before the foundation is finished! But I will stop doing CHS mods today - and so I will start doing RHS ship stuff - until they let me do something else for CHS.

Today's project - FYI - is the tiny Russian Pacific Fleet!

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

It says in the documentation, and in forum archives, that many ships and planes were made available early. Joe said to expect come JFB complaints with the next release re planes moving back in time to more historical availability dates. [So far, this has not happened - JFBs have praised my listed data - but maybe they have not yet noticed they won't get the Ki-Superplane so soon!] The won't let me do ships - SO they won't be fixed. But in RHS the ships will no longer have:

grossly falsified armor
grossly falsified ranges
grossly early arrival dates.

RHS will follow the release of CHS by some days. I cannot build on a foundation before the foundation is finished! But I will stop doing CHS mods today - and so I will start doing RHS ship stuff - until they let me do something else for CHS.

Today's project - FYI - is the tiny Russian Pacific Fleet!

I can't see anyone voluntarily changing arrival dates of ships ahead by a year or more. This does not sound like something done on purpose.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

I've also seen many things like range/fuel changed in CHS for main type, but it's upgrades retain stock values. Someone should check again ship classes.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

I've also seen many things like range/fuel changed in CHS for main type, but it's upgrades retain stock values. Someone should check again ship classes.

If you could provide a list of such things it would be very useful. Thanks.

Andrew

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: el cid again

It says in the documentation, and in forum archives, that many ships and planes were made available early. Joe said to expect come JFB complaints with the next release re planes moving back in time to more historical availability dates. [So far, this has not happened - JFBs have praised my listed data - but maybe they have not yet noticed they won't get the Ki-Superplane so soon!] The won't let me do ships - SO they won't be fixed. But in RHS the ships will no longer have:

grossly falsified armor
grossly falsified ranges
grossly early arrival dates.

RHS will follow the release of CHS by some days. I cannot build on a foundation before the foundation is finished! But I will stop doing CHS mods today - and so I will start doing RHS ship stuff - until they let me do something else for CHS.

Today's project - FYI - is the tiny Russian Pacific Fleet!

I can't see anyone voluntarily changing arrival dates of ships ahead by a year or more. This does not sound like something done on purpose.

Ron
Some of the allied ship arrival date screw ups can be blamed on me. They used an unedited list that I supplied early on in the rush to get the mod out. There are some date data typo's in it so please do not get into a big frizzy over it... On the same note I do think that most of these minor bugs will be taken care of in the next release.

Richard

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: el cid again

It says in the documentation, and in forum archives, that many ships and planes were made available early. Joe said to expect come JFB complaints with the next release re planes moving back in time to more historical availability dates. [So far, this has not happened - JFBs have praised my listed data - but maybe they have not yet noticed they won't get the Ki-Superplane so soon!] The won't let me do ships - SO they won't be fixed. But in RHS the ships will no longer have:

grossly falsified armor
grossly falsified ranges
grossly early arrival dates.

RHS will follow the release of CHS by some days. I cannot build on a foundation before the foundation is finished! But I will stop doing CHS mods today - and so I will start doing RHS ship stuff - until they let me do something else for CHS.

Today's project - FYI - is the tiny Russian Pacific Fleet!

I can't see anyone voluntarily changing arrival dates of ships ahead by a year or more. This does not sound like something done on purpose.

Ron
Some of the allied ship arrival date screw ups can be blamed on me. They used an unedited list that I supplied early on in the rush to get the mod out. There are some date data typo's in it so please do not get into a big frizzy over it... On the same note I do think that most of these minor bugs will be taken care of in the next release.

Richard

Hey man, that's my calling in life![:D]

[akdreemer]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

It says in the documentation, and in forum archives, that many ships and planes were made available early. Joe said to expect come JFB complaints with the next release re planes moving back in time to more historical availability dates. [So far, this has not happened - JFBs have praised my listed data - but maybe they have not yet noticed they won't get the Ki-Superplane so soon!] The won't let me do ships - SO they won't be fixed. But in RHS the ships will no longer have:

grossly falsified armor
grossly falsified ranges
grossly early arrival dates.

RHS will follow the release of CHS by some days. I cannot build on a foundation before the foundation is finished! But I will stop doing CHS mods today - and so I will start doing RHS ship stuff - until they let me do something else for CHS.

Today's project - FYI - is the tiny Russian Pacific Fleet!

Be interesting in seeing what you come up with in RHS.. Especially for the Japanese ships.. I have the Allied ones down pat.. but there are still some gray areas in the Japanese stats, especially in areas such as ASW and endurance considering that the Japanese fleet cruising speed was 18kts. I came to an early conclusion that the cruising speeds/endurance were way off. Gun ranges (effective versus max) may be the next thing I tackle. Good luck on the Soviet Fleet.. I have always felt that the Soviets were always an after thought in the game.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


F4-Lightning has some Jap plane's profile.
P38-F now has no art profile...just sky.

You need to make sure you have updated the art package. There were some errors/micommunications on art slots etc. They were fixed months ago. Before your glorius return.[8|]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


F4-Lightning has some Jap plane's profile.
P38-F now has no art profile...just sky.

You need to make sure you have updated the art package. There were some errors/micommunications on art slots etc. They were fixed months ago. Before your glorius return.[8|]

I have the latest art files. Prior to updating to latest CHS build all the art was bang on. [&:]

Glorious return! [:D] Whaaaa!

[el cid again]

I can't see anyone voluntarily changing arrival dates of ships ahead by a year or more. This does not sound like something done on purpose.

Without asking, I have been informed this was not only deliberate, but authorized. And, in fairness, I must say that for decades this was practice in mechanical games - to "compress" playing time - and make the Allies sorry initial lot less drawn out. The idea was "things changed from Japanese advantage to Allied advantage - why not do it without taking so long?" The answer, of course, is that Japan then lacks the time to take what she can, and build up defenses and economy. It is not simulation - but it is common practice. But currently there seems to be a consensus to set everything right - as we get to it. Unless we are to take years, this probably means not getting everything for the next release!

[el cid again]

I've also seen many things like range/fuel changed in CHS for main type, but it's upgrades retain stock values. Someone should check again ship classes.

With the exception of art, I have found no area of stock that was not grossly wrong, data wise. And CHS seems to have preserved over 95% of that stock data. With respect to Japanese planes - a subject on which I am now expert - I can say that CHS actually reformed some of the data - but not nearly enough. For some time it was controversial to fix it all - but finally a consensus was reached it should be done. My only problems left are these:

1) Data is in mph vice knots - contradicting the manual and different from ship movement

2) Data uses service cieling instead of some more meaningful value related to optimum operating altitude

I will certainly correct the latter in RHS. I may correct the former - but have learned to tolerate it - so I will listen to users views.

[el cid again]

If you could provide a list of such things it would be very useful. Thanks.

Andrew

It took me over a week to do for just Japan alone. [And, stupidly, except for subs and capital ships, I lost it!] Such a list for all ships would take a month to write - it includes the vast majority of ships. A typical example is that a ship is rated to go 1.75 times its real range on 2/3 the fuel it would really need - all this at a faster speed than its real range could be reached at! In effect, range/fuel efficiency is off by more than 100% - in the typical case. [Another way of saying this is you get twice the range per ton of fuel, and you get it moving faster than you should, which should mean you got less efficiency, not more]. I see no point in going in to look at all ship records to document this - and not at that moment fix it. The moment someone authorizes this, I will do it - and I will do it anyway after I stop getting CHS assignments - because I see it as so vital I will not play until it is done. There are two other gross logistical issues - supplies from resource centers (which I think I can fix) and unlimited port loading (which I don't think is fixable except by house rule) - but this one is clearly fixable.

[el cid again]

considering that the Japanese fleet cruising speed was 18kts.

Almost nothing Japanese military is ever simple! Complex is the very essense of the Japanese culture!

The old light cruisers had a cruising speed of 16 knots for example. And some later ships had cruising speeds of 20 knots. And slower ships that don't make 18 knots had lower cruising speeds - as they must.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I can't see anyone voluntarily changing arrival dates of ships ahead by a year or more. This does not sound like something done on purpose.

Without asking, I have been informed this was not only deliberate, but authorized. And, in fairness, I must say that for decades this was practice in mechanical games - to "compress" playing time - and make the Allies sorry initial lot less drawn out. The idea was "things changed from Japanese advantage to Allied advantage - why not do it without taking so long?" The answer, of course, is that Japan then lacks the time to take what she can, and build up defenses and economy. It is not simulation - but it is common practice. But currently there seems to be a consensus to set everything right - as we get to it. Unless we are to take years, this probably means not getting everything for the next release!

Ahhhhhh. What? It was correct earlier.[&:] Alaskan Warrior confirmed it was simply a series of booboos when using the editor a while back.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

Ok I will post a short list of things that may be a typos:

CA Tone (009)- in stock her main turrets protected by armour 150. In CHS lowered to 100... but its 2nd upgrade (class 631) back to stock value 150.
CA Chokai (013) - in stock Takao class - turret armour 150. CHS lowered to 82... but its upgrade (615) back to value of 150
CV Soryu (028)- stock endurance 7700. CHS: 8000, its upgrades (605 and later) back to 7700.
CV Hiryu (029)- stock endurance 7700. CHS: 8000, its upgrades (609 and later) back to 7700.
CV Shokaku (030)- stock endurance 9700. CHS: 10000, its upgrades (543 and later) back to 9700.
DD Asashio (064) - stock endurance 5000. CHS: 5800, its 2nd upgrade (574 and later) back to 4850 - mabe it's not a typo because it looks like it was intentionally. I onlyu want to make sure.
DD Kamikaze (074)- stock endurance 4000. CHS: 4000, its upgrades (589 and later) 3600 - look above.
APD PB1 (111) - stock endurance 9250. CHS: 6000, its upgrades (626 and later) back to 9250.

Also not the typo, possibly arguable datas:
PC Shimushu's (class 113) from my sources had in 1943 upgrade which made their armament exactly the same as Etorofus (114). Mabe its worthy to make class 113 to upgrade to 114? And name both Shimushu/Etorofu ? They also states that in start Shimushu had only 2 dc throwers.

[el cid again]

CA Tone (009)- in stock her main turrets protected by armour 150. In CHS lowered to 100... but its 2nd upgrade (class 631) back to stock value 150.

Which is completely wrong in all cases. No one is looking this up!!! Joe did - in Conways - and he found it is right there for all to see. NO JAPANESE CA has more than 25mm of turret armor - ever - period.
In fact, only one modern Japanese ship has 50mm of turret armor - if turret is the right word - the otherwise UNARMORED Kitori class. See Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War. See also Naval Weapons of World War Two. Japan standardized on a concept of splinter protection only and stuck with it. [WE decided this was right - long after the war - just in case you think they were wrong]. But right or wrong, HISTORICAL DATA is 25 mm for ALL IJN ships as gun armor, except in some wierd cases where it is 5mm, and Katori, which is 50 mm.

The only armor errors worse than turret armor errors are these:

1) Conning tower armor is almost universally fictional. It is great when it should be zero, zero when it should exist, and wrong when it is not zero more than 9 times in 10.

2) Merchant ships are armored!

3) Submarines are armored!

These latter on purpose by CHS too, not stock. CT armore and turret armor (and deck armor and side armor) errors mostly come from stock.

I began by pointing all this out. I intend to fix it all too - probably starting today - whenever I stop getting CHS assignments. I have no clue why this is tolerated - and I have no intention of playing while ships have fictional armor.

[DuckofTindalos]

Erm, about Japanese CA turret armour, which CHS are you looking at? In the 1.06 I have, all IJN CA main battery turrets have an armour rating of 25.