Soviet OOB thread

[TheElf]

Bump...again. Anotehr Soviet OOB thread. Subchasers work is of particular interest.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

Still missing submarines Shch-103 ,Shch-138 and L-16 and 2 cruisers.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

Ok... I've found that Shch-103 was lost in 1935... so not include it please... sorry for problems.
Shch-138 was lost by explosion of its own torpedo in 1942. But it still should be added in 1941 scenario.

[Widell]

Here´s a linkwith some useful information related to, in this case, the Soviet WWII Fleet

[el cid again]

I have created the following classes for the Soviet Pacific Fleet, in all cases based at Vladivostok:

Kirov CA: 2 ships (Kalinin in Dec 42, Kaganovich in Dec 44)
Leningrad DL: 2 ships (Tibilsi and Baku - one starts)
Gavriil (Old) DD: 2 ships (both start)
Gnevnyi DD: 7 ships (4 start)
Ognyevoi DD: 1 ship (1 arrives in 1945)
Stalinets SS: 1 ship (starts)
Leninet SS: 13 ships (most start)
Shchuka SSC: 4 ships (not enough slots for more than 30)
Malutka SSC: 4 ships (not enough slots for more than 30)
US Admirable class MS: 4 ships (not enough slots for more than 20)
US SC type Subchaser: 4 ships (not enough slots for 12)
G5 MTB: 4 boats (not enough slots for more than 100).

RHS will increase numbers, but I could not kill slots in CHS to do this.
Art is available and will associate with these classes. If you want the ships, advise. You need one new device: 181mm guns for Kirov.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

1) Tell us again what is the Stalinets class SS? Stalinets was a 2nd vessel of the L class!!! {EDIT: I see now that it's from Uboat.Net - but it's completely wrong!!!)
2) Kirov had 180mm guns
3) I think that in OoB at first should be added the biggest ships: CL, DD and SS - these are most importatnt ones. And put the real ones, not the never_were_theres like Ognevoy which was Black Sea ship.

I see you used 48 slots. So:
2 CL (arrives during the war)
2 DDL (one of them went west in 1942/1943 but still should be in OoB)
14 DD (two of them went west in 1942/1943 but still should be in OoB)
13 L-type SS (two of them went to Northern Fleet in 1942/1943 but still should be in OoB)
7 S-type SS (four of them went to Northern Fleet in 1942/1943 but still should be in OoB)
the rest should be 10 of 37 Shch-type SS...

These are most important ones in fleet, and I see no reason to delete good medium submarines and put instead of them coastal submarines of little use. Also better is to put into scenario destroyers which started the war here, than pack of escorts and minesweepers which arrived at the end of the war.

[el cid again]

1) Tell us again what is the Stalinets class SS? Stalinets was a 2nd vessel of the L class!!!

I have a professional study of the Soviet sub fleet. It has an ob for the start of the war - something like 21 June 1941 - and it lists one such vessel in the Pacific. I also have a submarine reference, and it shows Stalinets as a class - with almost identical data about the class. It is described as the best class available during the war - although it had some technical problems they were much fewer than any other Soviet class. If I remember right there were about 13 - but only one in the Pacific. It is the most important sub in the Pacific in operational terms for the Soviets. It has range, speed, and fair weapons. IF you regard a 5000 yard range torpedo as a weapon!

[el cid again]

2) Kirov had 180mm guns

This is often reported. It may be like Japanese ordnance - a "7 cm gun" is 72mm - etc. Rounded. See Naval Weapons of World War II. Also I have a scholarly study of all Soviet vessels from 1921 to 1937 - and Kirov dates from that period - so the gun is in the weapons chapter. It appears to be 181 mm - and that is what the naval museum in St Petersburg shows as well.

[el cid again]

3) I think that in OoB at first should be added the biggest ships: CL, DD and SS - these are most importatnt ones. And put the real ones, not the never_were_theres like Ognevoy which was Black Sea ship.

I completely agree. You have confused class name with ship name. Only two vessels of that class were completed - many others had laid down but the war got in the way. But one of these was in the Pacific - and I have her name (impossibly spelled but I have it anyway) - not the class name.
Also, I put in ALL POSSIBLE big ships but only token representative little ones - since there are not enough slots. I will fix that, but it was not possible for CHS - I lacked authority to kill other ships - even worthless ones.

[el cid again]

2 DDL (one of them went west in 1942/1943 but still should be in OoB)
14 DD (two of them went west in 1942/1943 but still should be in OoB)

I agonized over that. But in the game many ships are like that - so I thought "If the war occurs while they are around, after they appear, then the local fleet just keeps them."

[el cid again]

These are most important ones in fleet, and I see no reason to delete good medium submarines and put instead of them coastal submarines of little use.

I proposed that to my CHS manager - but was told to include the little ones.

I intend to add the medium subs for RHS. Maybe someday CHS will copy that.

[el cid again]

Also better is to put into scenario destroyers which started the war here, than pack of escorts and minesweepers which arrived at the end of the war.

Here I respectfully disagree. I think you really must have some minesweepers, or else how do you sweep mines from your harbor? I think sub chasers are useful too - and these give the Russians radar! However, I hope to give you your cake and eat it too - you will get both if I can make it happen. For now I felt it wise to at least put the right classes in the database - then anyone can implement them with the editor.

[el cid again]

{EDIT: I see now that it's from Uboat.Net - but it's completely wrong!!!)

I note significant uncertainties at surprising points. A Russian source lists 91 subs in the Pacific on 23 June 1941, but the USNI study only could identify 85 of them! Many points were contradictory between German, Russian and other sources. So maybe you will see/have different data. But all the major references have Stalinets (sometimes spelled stalinetc) and I think it is pretty clear it is not "completely wrong" they existed. It appears they were the most successful class - if fairly old.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

I have a professional study of the Soviet sub fleet. It has an ob for the start of the war - something like 21 June 1941 - and it lists one such vessel in the Pacific. I also have a submarine reference, and it shows Stalinets as a class - with almost identical data about the class. It is described as the best class available during the war - although it had some technical problems they were much fewer than any other Soviet class. If I remember right there were about 13 - but only one in the Pacific. It is the most important sub in the Pacific in operational terms for the Soviets. It has range, speed, and fair weapons. IF you regard a 5000 yard range torpedo as a weapon!

So again. I suppose that we are talking about S-class (series IX and IX bis). I am simply pointing out that this class letter was not taken from Stalinetz, because L-2 Stalinetz was ship of L-class not S-class. Letters in code names of ships were taken from name of first vessels of class (D - Dekabrist, L - Leninyets, P - Pravda, Shch - Shchuka, and later from its size (M - malutka = tiny, K - kryeyzerskaya = cruiser size and S - sryednaya = medium). My sources states that there were 7 (of 41 total built) ships of this class present in 1941 in Pacific: S-51(*), S-52, S-53, S-54(*), S-55(*), S-56(*) and S-57. Those marked with (*) left to Northern fleet in late 42.

This is often reported. It may be like Japanese ordnance - a "7 cm gun" is 72mm - etc. Rounded. See Naval Weapons of World War II. Also I have a scholarly study of all Soviet vessels from 1921 to 1937 - and Kirov dates from that period - so the gun is in the weapons chapter. It appears to be 181 mm - and that is what the naval museum in St Petersburg shows as well.

Maybe it was in reality closer in rounding to 181mm. But it still was a 180mm gun, just like the Scharnhorst 280mm's had in reality 283mm. Look at this - 180mm/57 B-1-P: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussi ... _m1932.htm

You have confused class name with ship name. Only two vessels of that class were completed - many others had laid down but the war got in the way. But one of these was in the Pacific - and I have her name (impossibly spelled but I have it anyway) - not the class name.

Well, Ognevoy class consisted of only one ship completed during the war : Ognevoy itself - for Black Sea Fleet. After the war 4 were completed for Baltic Fleet(Obraztsovy, Odaryonny, Otlichny,Otvazhny), another 2 for Black Sea (Opasny, Ozornoy) and 2 for Arctic (Osmotritelny, Otchotlivy). For Far East: none. Another 4 for Baltic were cancelled in 1941.
Could you give the spelling of this ship which you have on mind?

And at least I propose leaving coastal submarines, and put S-class instead.

[el cid again]

Well, Ognevoy class consisted of only one ship completed during the war : Ognevoy itself - for Black Sea Fleet. After the war 4 were completed for Baltic Fleet(Obraztsovy, Odaryonny, Otlichny,Otvazhny), another 2 for Black Sea (Opasny, Ozornoy) and 2 for Arctic (Osmotritelny, Otchotlivy). For Far East: none. Another 4 for Baltic were cancelled in 1941.
Could you give the spelling of this ship which you have on mind?

Although I have become a PLAN (Chinese navy) guy, most of my life I was a Soviet Navy guy - I studied the history of that fleet because it was the most likely enemy fleet. So I know this class: "The first postwar Soviet standard destroyer design - 'Project 30bix' - the Skoryi class - was developed directly from the Ognevoi class."

"Only Ognevoi and Vnushitelnyi were completed and commissioned by the end of hostilities; 12 others were completed between 1945 and 1949. The hulls of two units were captured by the Germans at Nikolayev and scrapped, while a further seven were demolished after the war."

Conways All the World's Fighting Ships, 1922-1946, p. 332.

[Monter_Trismegistos]

Ok... maybe you could have right... Nominnally 4 Far East Fleet ships (Vynoslivy, Vnushitelny, Vnimatelny, Vlastny) are listed as completed after the war "but one or two of them could been completed before 01.09.1945". Still not sure if they were combat ready before historical end of war. But they are listed as a "similliar or exact the same as" a Storozhevoy (7U) class.

Lipinski J. "Druga wojna swiatowa na morzu"(IIWW on sea) - dodatek(appendix) Wywerka Prekurat T. "Wykaz stanu flot wojennych panstw uczestniczacych w drugiej wojnie swiatowej" (Listing of State of Navies of Countries Taking Part in WWII)

[Bliztk]

One thing that I have most distaste is the treatment of WitP for the August Storm operation

Nothing, no reinforcements at all.

In the August Storm scenario Soviet has

15 corps with AV 1000+
5 corps with AV between 800 and 600
5 ARM Corps with close 600 AV
20 Inf Divs with 340 AV

I know that the slots for new units are scarce, but have you thought something like adding a few devices called something like "August Storm Reinforcemts - Soviet Inf 45", "August Storm Reinforcemts - T34/85" ,etc that would only start getting reinforcements early 45 and give them to existing units so we could simulate the massive buildup for this operation.

[Nikademus]

You can still cause alot of higgidy piggidy.

[el cid again]

have you thought something like adding a few devices called something like "August Storm Reinforcemts - Soviet Inf 45", "August Storm Reinforcemts - T34/85" ,etc that would only start getting reinforcements early 45 and give them to existing units so we could simulate the massive buildup for this operation.

Well, no. I have not thought about this. For one thing, I do not study the Soviet land OB most of the time in WITP. I assumed it was correct. If it isn't - it should be fixed. But it may be difficult.

One thought is that we could create an August Storm mini-scenario that was completely correct if there are not enough slots to do it in the campaign game. Another is that we can create very large formations - this is very Russian anyway - and reduce slot requirements.

[Bliztk]

There is a August Storm scenario in the game.

In CHS handsoff game, Soviet Union 18 Inf Divs of avg AV of 310

That`s 22,000 AV less than the WitP Scenario of August Storm.

My idea is to add several new devices so we could boost Soviet forces in the frametime to be avaliable to the August Storm Operation