The return of tristanjohn

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, 70 percent of SRA was enough to keep Japan going 100 percent. It was never not having it to move but in moving it. 400,000 oil points in Palembang does Japan exactly squat.

Exactly. I have a helluva lot more oil and resource sitting in the SRA production places than I can ever aim to move. As such Japan is receiving bits of it but not enough to produce mountains and mountains of supply and fuel for me to get to the front (as mentioned a lot of the auxilliary fleet is dedicated to keep the men and ships full up as possible)

Having the supply/fuel there makes resources/oil nearly redundant as a result! Can't you see this? You have way more raw materiel stockpiled in the SRA yet Japan still has gads of supply/fuel because the ratios are whacked. You would cherish those resources IF they were basically all you got from a resource centre. If you only got 1 supply point per 10 resource points at a resource base instead of the nearly 1-1 we have now you would not have posted this. All those resources would be tying up much of the merchant marine (which is undoubtedly on some amphib op thereby not available to haul the resources hence the stockpile).

This is not simply a gambit to hog tie Japan. The Allies have tons of shipping with nothing to do as well because of this magic supply.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, What is the largest resource center on map? Tolibai or something near Palembang.
900 resource centers So it produces 1125 reource points that are useless unless shiped to HI hex.
It also produces 900 supply
Now the ships required to haul the resources could haul supply instead there and unload and build units and such and the end result would be exactly the same as it is now as far as Japanese supply and replacement goes. They don't produce when enemy is in hex so they don't help that at all. Wheres the beef?

Look at it this way. Supply needs to be looked at as purely military given the abstract approach neccesitated by the scale of the game. Period. As such those 900 supply are the beef. Why? Because it is incompatible Allied military supply yet can now be immediately converted to Japanese manufactured ammo, weapons etc ONSITE, no shipping necessary. If it were just resources or predominantly resources with some compatible supply (fuel, stores etc), those same resources would have to be shipped back to a Japanese industrial centre and manufactured into Japanese military supply and by so doing making the elegance of the logistics model work and slowing down the games torrid pace.

Hi, No only that portion in excess of 20k supply can be used as replacement TOE or aircraft. (Provided a HQ is near)
Only that portion in excess of units basic needs can be used as ammo and supply is not produced when enemy in hex so it will run out.

Unless the base is built (I think it is 1/1 at start) the supply will never grow beyond a certain level (I think I have seen it as high as 60k

So the major issue is over a base that will have 410625 load points in AKs arriving every year (If out put is 100 percent) being able to feed and arm the troops located there? No one is going to use that base for supply they are coming for the resource and they can come loaded or unloaded. I can see where the 328,500 supply produced there would scare you. If you didn't know it would all just rot and nothing the Japanese player can do will stop that unless he builds the base. Or he parks AK there loading every day for use else where...no thats no good because once Japan loads it it becomes whatever Japan requires. Magic to the tatical squad leaders and privates but simple logistics to the high mucky mucks. But oh look A base Japan must send AK to in excess produces an amount less then transport required. Egads is there more abstract supply in play? Is the Japanese staff actually doing me some good? It sucksa because to reap the rewards from this I have to
1. Build the base
2. Send a HQ
3. Maintain LCU/Air
4. Haul fuel (none produced there)
5. keep the AK coming (what is this some kind of theme. This game keeps wanting me to move transports)

So there is no bonus supply at that particular base. (400,000 load points are going to arrive there any way. The supply can"t be used in that hex and since it has to be moved the train of AK going there and back converts any supply loaded into whatever it needs to be. The magic only works if the path back to Japan is open. That path goes both ways.

And this base might cost the Japanese 900,000 supply and 900 days to repair. Just as often as it produces 900 supply per day it produces 0 supply per day.


what is the spoilage rate for a size 1/1 base?

[Mr.Frag]

So Ron ... just to be clear, you would be completely happy about the supply issue if one simple change was made?

Supply only can be produced in hexes that have HI. (ie: nix the little bit that is created as a spillover at the resource centers?)

You want the same for fuel? (ie: no spun off fuel in Oil only hexes?)

[Ron Saueracker]

What is the big deal about actually trying a beta version with the ratio of resource/supply reduced from the current 1.25:1 down to 1.25 to .10? How hard would it be? All we are doing now is spraying spittle onto each others PC monitors arguing a moot point without proof. And without the supply reduced (it is hardcoded) we can't test my suspicion otherwise.

[mogami]

Hi, Der yes you can. Play Japan in a PBEM game.

[moses]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

So Ron ... just to be clear, you would be completely happy about the supply issue if one simple change was made?

Supply only can be produced in hexes that have HI. (ie: nix the little bit that is created as a spillover at the resource centers?)

You want the same for fuel? (ie: no spun off fuel in Oil only hexes?)

[:D][:D]great idea[:D]

THe supply and fuel that you lose at the resourse location (by such a change) should be returned at the HI location in order to retain the same overall supply levels.

This would significantly improve things IMO.

Very important to keep the same balance or certain theaters (China) will be screwed up. i.e. if you take the supply away that is produced at a resourse center and don't add it back at the HI China will be bone dry.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

So Ron ... just to be clear, you would be completely happy about the supply issue if one simple change was made?

Supply only can be produced in hexes that have HI. (ie: nix the little bit that is created as a spillover at the resource centers?)

You want the same for fuel? (ie: no spun off fuel in Oil only hexes?)

Is this a serious question? If so, I will state that I would be happy if we had the ability to adjust the ratios for resource/supply and oil/fuel in the editor. This would allow the mods to manipulate them and everyone could play as they wished and those who think everything is fine won't be forced into something they don't want either. So again, regarding the logistics issue, if this simple change was made I'd shut my big mouth about it.[&o]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Der yes you can. Play Japan in a PBEM game.

I could not manipulate my forces from using the magic supply now could I? It's hard coded.

[mogami]

Hi, It gets funny. What exactly does Tolibi represent? Well look one of the worlds largest tin mines, A major fish packer, vegtable producers and metal working and it all goes boom or it produces food and resouces. Darn that 7mm ammo ruins it wait theres a small arms ammo plant a mere 120 miles away.

[Nikademus]

its interesting....as Japan....i'm having to ship serious supply points to Java to maintain the levels there. (I have a substantial garrison there) hmm.....no bountiful supply being produced there. I keep forgetting about it too....next thing i know the captial is in the red again.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, It gets funny. What exactly does Tolibi represent? Well look one of the worlds largest tin mines, A major fish packer, vegtable producers and metal working and it all goes boom or it produces food and resouces. Darn that 7mm ammo ruins it wait theres a small arms ammo plant a mere 120 miles away.

You are missing the point. By changing the resource/supply ratio to 10:1 or some such the above base still is represented. Just means that now the tin has to go back to major centres and made into alloys etc rather than rusting away because the supply is already produced onsite. Still get your nosh and bullets.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

its interesting....as Japan....i'm having to ship serious supply points to Java to maintain the levels there. (I have a substantial garrison there) hmm.....no bountiful supply being produced there. I keep forgetting about it too....next thing i know the captial is in the red again.

How much is serious shipping? In Feb 1942 there was like 150 merchant vessels in Batavia alone for whatever reason, shipping in supply, removing resources etc. Are you talking this amount of shipping?

[Nikademus]

Enough to make a Uboat commander's mouth water in anticipation. Then there's the constant effort to ship OIL and resource back to Japan.

But don't take my word for it. Start the AAR as Japan. [:)]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Enough to make a Uboat commander's mouth water in anticipation. Then there's the constant effort to ship OIL and resource back to Japan.

But don't take my word for it. Start the AAR as Japan. [:)]

You are definitely trying, I'll give you that. I'll think about it but I'm not a big IJ fan. Mainly because I enjoy defending and that's what being the Allies is all about early on, and this unfortunately is the life span of a PBEM...until the Japanese player loses his ability to slap the Allies around.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Look at it this way. Supply needs to be looked at as purely military given the abstract approach neccesitated by the scale of the game. Period. As such those 900 supply are the beef. Why? Because it is incompatible Allied military supply yet can now be immediately converted to Japanese manufactured ammo, weapons etc ONSITE, no shipping necessary. If it were just resources or predominantly resources with some compatible supply (fuel, stores etc), those same resources would have to be shipped back to a Japanese industrial centre and manufactured into Japanese military supply and by so doing making the elegance of the logistics model work and slowing down the games torrid pace.

I disagree. Supply requirements are not purely military. The single constant requirement is food. You need bullets for comabt, but guns are not a consumable, except for Polish rifle squads. (Polish manufactured rifle for sale - Never been used and only dropped once). While the generic supply model is generous in some ways, it is also accurate in some ways. In truth, less than 20 percent of IJN supply is provided without significant transport costs from the SRA. While I agree there is some error caused by generic supply, I find that I end up shipping in plenty of supply from the Home Islands to augment what I send from the SRA. I simply rationalize it as a mixture of food (SRA) and ammo/guns/etc. (Home Islands).

[mogami]

Hi, OK I found it. At start the largest resource producer Tobali can have 17k supply before it spoils. You need 20k to replace or repair LCU or Aircraft.
I know I saw it at 60k but I had built it up. Oil and resource never spoil just fuel and supply. Bases like Chungking can hold a lot more at start I think it can max out at 999,999 (don't know where it will come from)
Asize 1/1 base can have 5k fuel before spoilage. (Oh my) might that be why all those bases are at or below 3k in my games?

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Look at it this way. Supply needs to be looked at as purely military given the abstract approach neccesitated by the scale of the game. Period. As such those 900 supply are the beef. Why? Because it is incompatible Allied military supply yet can now be immediately converted to Japanese manufactured ammo, weapons etc ONSITE, no shipping necessary. If it were just resources or predominantly resources with some compatible supply (fuel, stores etc), those same resources would have to be shipped back to a Japanese industrial centre and manufactured into Japanese military supply and by so doing making the elegance of the logistics model work and slowing down the games torrid pace.

I disagree. Supply requirements are not purely military. The single constant requirement is food. You need bullets for comabt, but guns are not a consumable, except for Polish rifle squads. (Polish manufactured rifle for sale - Never been used and only dropped once). While the generic supply model is generous in some ways, it is also accurate in some ways. In truth, less than 20 percent of IJN supply is provided without significant transport costs from the SRA. While I agree there is some error caused by generic supply, I find that I end up shipping in plenty of supply from the Home Islands to augment what I send from the SRA. I simply rationalize it as a mixture of food (SRA) and ammo/guns/etc. (Home Islands).

Hi, The so called magic only works if there is a path to Japan and Ak are moving to and from. Because this traffic must exist there is no magic. Many games would simply end the supply question with
1. Can you trace a path
2, do you have the transports

OK your in supply

tobali will not support Japanese units unless Japan builds the base and has existing AK traffic there. It will not support Allied units unless they are in range of THEIR HQ and not occupied by enemy and more then 20k in excess present and spoilage occurs at 17k
It produces no fuel at all and it cannot rearm larger then 5in so it is not a source for bombardment missions.

I think it has gathered more attention then it merits.

The other large resource centers are Palembang and Kendari. Kendari produces no fuel
Sorong produces 10 fuel points per day and spoils at 5k

I am looking at their POV as hard as I can and I still don't see the problem or how this is the cause of pace of games and not player willingness to forgo escort TF for transports air cover and using bombardment over air for base suppression. Has there ever been a game not a Sir Robin where the Japanese did not lose a BB or CA bombarding Java or Sumatra?

I am a little miffed by the refusal to believe the persons who actually play Japan while at the same time refusing to do so themselves.

Is it really that 700 fuel per day from Palembang that speeds up Japan in South Pacific ?
Or is it Japan getting easy SRA and using Home Island fuel to move to empty bases early in war (it costs much less fuel to send a few transports and DD in Dec/Jan then it does to fight for them in May)

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Speedy

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, 70 percent of SRA was enough to keep Japan going 100 percent. It was never not having it to move but in moving it. 400,000 oil points in Palembang does Japan exactly squat.

Exactly. I have a helluva lot more oil and resource sitting in the SRA production places than I can ever aim to move. As such Japan is receiving bits of it but not enough to produce mountains and mountains of supply and fuel for me to get to the front (as mentioned a lot of the auxilliary fleet is dedicated to keep the men and ships full up as possible)

Having the supply/fuel there makes resources/oil nearly redundant as a result! Can't you see this? You have way more raw materiel stockpiled in the SRA yet Japan still has gads of supply/fuel because the ratios are whacked. You would cherish those resources IF they were basically all you got from a resource centre. If you only got 1 supply point per 10 resource points at a resource base instead of the nearly 1-1 we have now you would not have posted this. All those resources would be tying up much of the merchant marine (which is undoubtedly on some amphib op thereby not available to haul the resources hence the stockpile).

This is not simply a gambit to hog tie Japan. The Allies have tons of shipping with nothing to do as well because of this magic supply.

I do not cherish resources because I have no oil to turn them into supply. Resources and oil are worth nothing unless you can turn them into usable items (HI, fuel, supply). Because resources are combined 1 to 1 with Oil at HI centers to produce HI, supply, and fuel, I ignore resources because Oil is the critical resource limiting me as Japan. It does me no good to haul resources if I have no oil to turn it into HI, supply, and fuel. This does not affect the Allies equally, because the bulk of Allied supply is provided via direct supply/fuel production or is so far away that it is tough for Japan to harm it at any point in the war. For me, if resource pool > oil pool, I feel no overwhelming desire to ship resources to Japan. Sure, I like to have em, and ship em when I can, but my number 1 goal is oil.

As for the amount of supply there in the SRA, you are wrong. I have way more supply in Japan than in the SRA, because over 80 percent of Japanese supply comes from Japan, Manchukuo, Formosa, Korea, and China through HI centers and Resource centers. Fully half of that comes from HI and only if oil exists to turn it into supply.

I can about sustain the SRA forces on the supply produced there, but then they are not in combat. If they were, I would need supply from outside (once my current stockpiles shipped in from Japan were exhausted). To date in my game with Mogami, I have transported probably 2 or 3 times as much supply INTO SRA bases ( I recall at least 8 major TF's - full of supply going in) than I exported out (1 very large TF) and most of the supply that has been produced locally has gone to repair oil facilities (augmented by supply from HI).

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Look at it this way. Supply needs to be looked at as purely military given the abstract approach neccesitated by the scale of the game. Period. As such those 900 supply are the beef. Why? Because it is incompatible Allied military supply yet can now be immediately converted to Japanese manufactured ammo, weapons etc ONSITE, no shipping necessary. If it were just resources or predominantly resources with some compatible supply (fuel, stores etc), those same resources would have to be shipped back to a Japanese industrial centre and manufactured into Japanese military supply and by so doing making the elegance of the logistics model work and slowing down the games torrid pace.

I disagree. Supply requirements are not purely military. The single constant requirement is food. You need bullets for comabt, but guns are not a consumable, except for Polish rifle squads. (Polish manufactured rifle for sale - Never been used and only dropped once). While the generic supply model is generous in some ways, it is also accurate in some ways. In truth, less than 20 percent of IJN supply is provided without significant transport costs from the SRA. While I agree there is some error caused by generic supply, I find that I end up shipping in plenty of supply from the Home Islands to augment what I send from the SRA. I simply rationalize it as a mixture of food (SRA) and ammo/guns/etc. (Home Islands).

Hi, The so called magic only works if there is a path to Japan and Ak are moving to and from. Because this traffic must exist there is no magic. Many games would simply end the supply question with
1. Can you trace a path
2, do you have the transports

OK your in supply

tobali will not support Japanese units unless Japan builds the base and has existing AK traffic there. It will not support Allied units unless they are in range of THEIR HQ and not occupied by enemy and more then 20k in excess present and spoilage occurs at 17k
It produces no fuel at all and it cannot rearm larger then 5in so it is not a source for bombardment missions.

I think it has gathered more attention then it merits.

The other large resource centers are Palembang and Kendari. Kendari produces no fuel
Sorong produces 10 fuel points per day and spoils at 5k

I am looking at their POV as hard as I can and I still don't see the problem or how this is the cause of pace of games and not player willingness to forgo escort TF for transports air cover and using bombardment over air for base suppression. Has there ever been a game not a Sir Robin where the Japanese did not lose a BB or CA bombarding Java or Sumatra?

I am a little miffed by the refusal to believe the persons who actually play Japan while at the same time refusing to do so themselves.

Is it really that 700 fuel per day from Palembang that speeds up Japan in South Pacific ?
Or is it Japan getting easy SRA and using Home Island fuel to move to empty bases early in war (it costs much less fuel to send a few transports and DD in Dec/Jan then it does to fight for them in May)

I've played Japan but I don't like it much. I like defence. Anyway, again this is NOT about Japan! It's about the logistics.

[mogami]

Hi, Ron don't you know Japan imported food from SRA along with the resources? There were 167 million people living there. The SRA was a food exporter before and during the war. OK back to the old what does Japan require per day and where does it come from thread. We did this when you were still in the private forum.