The return of tristanjohn

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Speedy




Exactly. I have a helluva lot more oil and resource sitting in the SRA production places than I can ever aim to move. As such Japan is receiving bits of it but not enough to produce mountains and mountains of supply and fuel for me to get to the front (as mentioned a lot of the auxilliary fleet is dedicated to keep the men and ships full up as possible)

Having the supply/fuel there makes resources/oil nearly redundant as a result! Can't you see this? You have way more raw materiel stockpiled in the SRA yet Japan still has gads of supply/fuel because the ratios are whacked. You would cherish those resources IF they were basically all you got from a resource centre. If you only got 1 supply point per 10 resource points at a resource base instead of the nearly 1-1 we have now you would not have posted this. All those resources would be tying up much of the merchant marine (which is undoubtedly on some amphib op thereby not available to haul the resources hence the stockpile).

This is not simply a gambit to hog tie Japan. The Allies have tons of shipping with nothing to do as well because of this magic supply.

I do not cherish resources because I have no oil to turn them into supply. Resources and oil are worth nothing unless you can turn them into usable items (HI, fuel, supply). Because resources are combined 1 to 1 with Oil at HI centers to produce HI, supply, and fuel, I ignore resources because Oil is the critical resource limiting me as Japan. It does me no good to haul resources if I have no oil to turn it into HI, supply, and fuel. This does not affect the Allies equally, because the bulk of Allied supply is provided via direct supply/fuel production or is so far away that it is tough for Japan to harm it at any point in the war. For me, if resource pool > oil pool, I feel no overwhelming desire to ship resources to Japan. Sure, I like to have em, and ship em when I can, but my number 1 goal is oil.

As for the amount of supply there in the SRA, you are wrong. I have way more supply in Japan than in the SRA, because over 80 percent of Japanese supply comes from Japan, Manchukuo, Formosa, Korea, and China through HI centers and Resource centers. Fully half of that comes from HI and only if oil exists to turn it into supply.

I can about sustain the SRA forces on the supply produced there, but then they are not in combat. If they were, I would need supply from outside (once my current stockpiles shipped in from Japan were exhausted). To date in my game with Mogami, I have transported probably 2 or 3 times as much supply INTO SRA bases ( I recall at least 8 major TF's - full of supply going in) than I exported out (1 very large TF) and most of the supply that has been produced locally has gone to repair oil facilities (augmented by supply from HI).

Basically you are saying in WITP there is no reason to go to war because you have enough already within the confines of pre PH Japan empire. LOL[8D]

[Skyros]

According to a spread sheet I downloaded from Spookies, Ressources.xls, Japan needs to import 7,590 oil points and 7,702.5 Resource points to maximize its industry. It starts the game with 210 days of resources and 213 days of oil stockpiled.

[mogami]

I've played Japan but I don't like it much. I like defence. Anyway, again this is NOT about Japan! It's about the logistics.

Hi WITP takes 1600 turns to play. Japan is on the offensive for at most 400 turns. The rest of time (if not sooner) It is near hopeless defense. Or do you perfer the defense where the defneder outnumbers the attacker?

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Ron don't you know Japan imported food from SRA along with the resources? There were 167 million people living there. The SRA was a food exporter before and during the war. OK back to the old what does Japan require per day and where does it come from thread. We did this when you were still in the private forum.

Again , the whole point of saying the supply is there in DEI to export food to Japan yet there is no civilian economy at all. Therefore I reiterate that supply in this game should for all intents and purposes be military supply.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Skyros

According to a spread sheet I downloaded from Spookies, Ressources.xls, Japan needs to import 7,590 oil points and 7,702.5 Resource points to maximize its industry. It starts the game with 210 days of resources and 213 days of oil stockpiled.

Hi and thats before combat requirements are even added in correct? (Those numbers are just to get industry running)
How does it define "industry maximized?" exitsing facilties are expansion of some

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

I've played Japan but I don't like it much. I like defence. Anyway, again this is NOT about Japan! It's about the logistics.

Hi WITP takes 1600 turns to play. Japan is on the offensive for at most 400 turns. The rest of time (if not sooner) It is near hopeless defense. Or do you perfer the defense where the defneder outnumbers the attacker?

PBEMs generally don't last long enough. Most AARs end when someone calls it quits and concedes. I don't as Allied but can't guarantee my Allied opponent won't after my Death Star eats the USN for breaky.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

ORIGINAL: Skyros

According to a spread sheet I downloaded from Spookies, Ressources.xls, Japan needs to import 7,590 oil points and 7,702.5 Resource points to maximize its industry. It starts the game with 210 days of resources and 213 days of oil stockpiled.

Hi and thats before combat requirements are even added in correct? (Those numbers are just to get industry running)

Does it say how much supply is available?

[Skyros]

THat maximizes at start industry, Japan also produces 15,600 supply, 12,173 fuel points, 9,090 HI and 3375 manpower per day at start.

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: Mogami

I've played Japan but I don't like it much. I like defence. Anyway, again this is NOT about Japan! It's about the logistics.

Hi WITP takes 1600 turns to play. Japan is on the offensive for at most 400 turns. The rest of time (if not sooner) It is near hopeless defense. Or do you perfer the defense where the defneder outnumbers the attacker?

PBEMs generally don't last long enough. Most AARs end when someone calls it quits and concedes. I don't as Allied but can't guarantee my Allied opponent won't after my Death Star eats the USN for breaky.

Hi, Well that would be the point right? Your IJN death star is able to roam forever because it is fed with an endless supply of fuel produced 10 points per day at Sorong. (700 fuel per dayfrom Palembang wont keep the DD escorts at sea for more then a day)

[mogami]

Hi so Japan can repair or expand 15 points of arms or aircraft or engine production per day without touching the stockpile. All the equipment and aircraft will also consume their load weight in supply as they are issued from pool to on map units.

Any such increase in armas or aircraft or engine will produce a need for greater oil/resource conversion to gain the required HI points. More HI in turn requires more oil/resource conversion and expanding HI consumes supply as well
Been up too many hours. I was going to go to bed at 1am then 3 am then 6am then noon here it is 4pm and I'm about zonked.

[Skyros]

The DEI produces 1,500 fuel and 4,900 Supply.

[mogami]

Hi, Yes with the provsion that the bases where it is produced be large enough to store it. Fuel at a 1/1 spoils at 5k and supply at 17k and all the centers are at 100 percent out put. (I have never seen that)

Thanks a lot Skyros. You have helped put a face on the "Phantom" So its a 9k tanker every 6 days and 4 x7k AK every 6 days provided you can gather it all together before it spoils or wanders off.

Now all we have to do is find out how much non oil and non resource Japan imported from SRA. We will have the beast by the horns.

[RUPD3658]

(Polish manufactured rifle for sale - Never been used and only dropped once).

Oznoyng, I thought that was only the story with French rifles. The Poles put up a valiant but doomed fight.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
How much is serious shipping? In Feb 1942 there was like 150 merchant vessels in Batavia alone for whatever reason, shipping in supply, removing resources etc. Are you talking this amount of shipping?

Numbers are irrelevant. One 16K TK lost is around two days of Home Islands production lost. Let's take Palembang as an example:

Loading a 16K TK at Palembang takes 10 days.
Unloading a 16K TK at a size 10 port takes 4 days.
The roundtrip between Palembang and Hiroshima takes 26 days (104 hexes, 4 hexes per day)
A complete cycle takes 40 days.
Palembang undamaged produces 4200 oil per day, so in 40 days it produces 168000 oil.
You therefore need 11 16K TK's to transport Palembang oil to Hiroshima every 40 days.
Eleven 16K TK's and you get 26 days to try to sink them along a route pretty much known to both players, much of it in shallow water suitable for mining and in some deep water suitable for operation of subs. So throw mines, subs, and later aircraft against those TK's. Each one sunk (or even damaged since cargo burns before TK's sink) represents a reduction of Japan's oil stockpiles by two days.

Now, all of this assumes that the Oil is captured intact. As Japan, the Sir Robin defense is great, because Sir Robin means you get Oil intact. In my game with Mogami, he had some successes against Oil. Like what? Oh, that Palembang oil we quote and covet so lovingly? I got it with 699 of 700 centers destroyed despite 12 to 1 combat odds, tons of engineers, and bombardments by land, sea, and air prior to ground combat. I was luckier elsewhere, but the net result is that if I transport every drop of oil captured centers produce, I do not have enough to run all my HI.

The reason why you keep seeing all the Japanese players telling you to play Japan is that many of the arguments flying around ignore what really transpires in the game. The Theory is nice, but the Reality is very different. Until you have played Japan for a while, you have not seen the costs associated with each move you make. I feel confident that an experienced and good Japanese player will make your life hell after switching sides and playing the Allies. A former Japanese player understands intimately the tradeoffs you will be forced to make.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Basically you are saying in WITP there is no reason to go to war because you have enough already within the confines of pre PH Japan empire. LOL[8D]

Not at all, I am saying the main reason to go to war is oil. If you get lots of oil, then the resources are a nice bonus and make it reasonable to expand your HI. If you only get a bit of oil, the resources in your at start territories are sufficient. If you get a medium amount of oil, then the resources in the SRA are useful to a point. If you get lots of oil, then the reosurces in the SRA are important.

[moses]

ORIGINAL: Mogami


I think it has gathered more attention then it merits.


I am looking at their POV as hard as I can and I still don't see the problem or how this is the cause of pace of games ....


I am a little miffed by the refusal to believe the persons who actually play Japan while at the same time refusing to do so themselves.

Problem is not worth all that much attention but is a minor isssue.

Overall suppy cannot be a real problem since supply can allways be used for something. If your not having a shortage its because you decided not to expand industry or repair resourse/oil centers. Its a choice based on how you play. (And I have played as Japan[;)])

Pace of operations is effected by local issues. Ease of use of captured supply and ease of converting local resourses into combat useable supply makes it easier to establish forward bases early in the game. So you land at a base and within a day or two you're flying 200 aircraft and supplying your ships off local and captured supply.

Excess of transports adds to the pace of operations issue as you I think you agree as I remember you posting that you keep a certain amount of shipping offline to correct for the problem.

These problem seem of less importance as the game goes on but are of some importance in the early going.

[mogami]

Hi, Ron when Palembang is captured at 0 output Japan does not need the resources. She just picks up what she can when she can but without Palemang the demand is reduced. Now look at game with Dadman Palembang, Tobali, Kendari, Burnei, Miri, Batavia, Soerabaja all reduced below 50 percent and the large ones completly shot, I don't require too many resources. But I never expanded my industry either. But I read post after post by non Japanese players telling me how much excess supply I have.
If I post I get told I'm a fan boy looking for a master.
By people who have never ran Japan. You have not ran Japan if you stop while your still using the Home Island prewar stockpile.
I would bet there are players who would have resigned the game when they looked at SRA.

I'm going to bed. I think we made a little bit of progress in examining the need for or impact of starting levels.
1. Base size matters
2. Unless a base can maintain in excess of 20k it has no real supply value.
3. I think there is a conflict of stories. If Japan is moving in an operating 200 aircraft from a base the base must be at least a size 4 airfield and I would suppose port. 8 combined is a large base not a minor base lie Sorong. Is there an objection to Japanese bombardment TF coming down from Singapore?

Japan did importan large amount of food from SRA and it appears prewar India imported large amounts of food from Burma and had famine when Burma fell to Japan. I don't think there is a lot of supply production in Burma but there you go.

[rtrapasso]

But I read post after post by non Japanese players telling me how much excess supply I have.

i hope you are not putting words in my mouth!![:D]

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: moses
Pace of operations is effected by local issues. Ease of use of captured supply and ease of converting local resourses into combat useable supply makes it easier to establish forward bases early in the game. So you land at a base and within a day or two you're flying 200 aircraft and supplying your ships off local and captured supply.

Japan's ability to open forward air bases after capturing them was noted in China before the US entered the war and a day was what it took them in China.

As for the usability of captured supply... What items in supply would you expect to be unusable?

AVGAS? Aside from potential octane rating variations, I can't see how captured avgas would be unusable.
Gasoline? Ditto.
Diesel? This was WW2, not California present day.
Fuel oil? Um, why would it burn in an Allied ship and not a Japanese one?
Ammo? Pick up the rifles from dead, injured, fleeing, or captured soldiers and use the ammo.
Bombs? Rig a mating kit so they can be dropped
Cement? Um...
Food?
Water?
Radios?
Canteens?
Tents?
Wood?
Metal?

How is all of this unusable?

About the only supplies unlikely to be used would be large calibre gun ammunition and torpedos, and even that assumes that none of the guns were scavenged. Even some aircraft spare parts (especially instruments) would be usable.

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn


You're saying that the Japanese ability to overrun China has been squashed? How?

I can agree with that. How? honestly I don't know, didn't follow all patches and "what changed" but i found Chinese more resistable to Japanese. If you want facts, i can offer you only my AAR.