Important! About the timeline and campaign start dates in Bombing the Reich

[Augenstein]

Is it possible to make the 1943 campaign start a lot earlier than the current 17th of August 1943? I mean, the 8th AAF was operational in early 1942. Could we change the campaign start date to something like Feb or March 1943, when the first P-47's became operational? Please, oh please..

Or atleast could you make it an option to start the 1943 campaign earlier, would this require a lot of work?

[Hard Sarge]

Hold your horses

we may even be able to get one to start in 1937

LOL I can see JC spinning like a top right now


okay, not all sure what is planned right now, there are things we could do with the start date, but also, would it be worthwhile, I mean how how many times can the Allied player bomb Rouen ?

of course, another hassle will be what is going on in the MED, if we get a ground war working right, we may be able to fight the desert war, if not, does not really make much sense to begin in 42

[Nikademus]

what would be the point? The 8th was still building and organizing in 42 and didn't have the strength to do much of anything meaningful outside of 'test' pinprick raids.

[Hard Sarge]

True
but the point is still there, that the air war didn't start in Aug of 43, and if we go with the early air war from the GB side, it was massive and very costly

but while I think it could and should have it's own game, or be included in a different game, I think in BTR it is too different to be in

if that game starts in Jan of 42, how much of a change is going to take place in the GE reseach

[Richrd]

What about Ploesti? What about Hamburg? What about the Ruhr? There's an awful lot of red on my map at august 43.

[The Dude]

The 1000 at Koln took place in May 42, maybe we should work from there. Or the fact that Fighter Command was one of the first offensive element in 1941 should give us a starting point.

Or the fact that i just got home from playing army and have drunk 14 beers has affected my judgment and i need burgers anyone wanna go to McGreasy and grab some burgers and play video games till we pass out...

[Augenstein]

How about moving the start date to somewhere in March 1943, the first P-47's became operational during that month and the 8th AAF air offensive was becoming stronger and stronger. Infact the Summer of 1943 was very hectic time for the 8th AAF and now we are completely missing it. And if you dont want to hit Rouen xx times [8|] you can still make it optional and people can choose the standard 700-day campaign starting in 17th of August 1943.

[Hard Sarge]

oh, i am not against it, I am thinking of other things in the game that will change

I mean, say we start in March of 43, you go out and hit the 15 EFAC site and crush it, it will break apart and rebuild, a whole lot earlier then it should, which is going to change the game, and other stuff like that

I think the time line is tried into the AF's on Sicly being set up and ready for action, with out Sicly, the MED is going to be pretty boring

(I forget, but I remembered trying to get a Polisti style raid off, and it didn't work, the plane ranges and game ranges are different (I forget which OOB that was in))

Like in BoB, as it is now, we pretty much skip Phase one of the battle, if we move the date ahead, we don't have any shipping to attack, or reasons for the GB to protect the channel, and with out restictions placed on the GE player, not to start the battle early, what is going to happen

the dates have been and are being talked about, game play and what can and can't be done, also got to be figured in

plus, how is the AI going to be able to handle it ?
it has enough trouble as it is

which going back to the rubarb's, if you were the GE player in 42 and the Allies sent 24 Bostons with 38 squadons of Spitfires to bomb Tille, are you going to intercept, or take your chances with the 24 Bostons ?

Balance is such a hassle with these kinds of changes

[otisabuser2]

Roger that HS,

very few people have actually finished the game from the late 1943 start. How many would do this from early 1943. That's another 100 or 200 game turns.

What could the Allied player acheive from early 1943 onwards, with reduced resources, that would win the war for him in 1944/1945 ?

Like in BoB, as it is now, we pretty much skip Phase one of the battle, if we move the date ahead, we don't have any shipping to attack, or reasons for the GB to protect the channel, and with out restictions placed on the GE player, not to start the battle early, what is going to happen

Agree again [:)]


regards Otis ( party-pooper )

[Augenstein]

Yeah, few people might actually finish the current 1943, but this is supposed to be THE micromanagement game that goes below the surface, so why not add the odd 100+ turns?? The summer of 1943 was extremely important time for the 8th AAF buildup, quite heavy raids were flown deep into Germany (targets such as Hannover, Hamburg and Osnabruck were hit, as opposite to previously mentioned Rouens). This chapter of the 8th AAF CANNOT be overlooked in my opinion. Personally thinking, this is one of the most interesting periods of the 8th AAF as they were struggling against the experienced Luftwaffe, this kind of early campaign would offer a great challenge (as opposite to late 1944 and onwards when Allied numbers overwhelm the Axis..) for the Allied player.

Personally, I dont give a damn about the MTO, it has always been mandatory to me. I would like to see a game similar to BTR that would concentrate SOLELY on 8th AAF operations...

Sorry about any spelling errors [:o]

[The Dude]

Yeah, few people might actually finish the current 1943, but this is supposed to be THE micromanagement game that goes below the surface, so why not add the odd 100+ turns?? The summer of 1943 was extremely important time for the 8th AAF buildup, quite heavy raids were flown deep into Germany (targets such as Hannover, Hamburg and Osnabruck were hit, as opposite to previously mentioned Rouens). This chapter of the 8th AAF CANNOT be overlooked in my opinion. Personally thinking, this is one of the most interesting periods of the 8th AAF as they were struggling against the experienced Luftwaffe, this kind of early campaign would offer a great challenge (as opposite to late 1944 and onwards when Allied numbers overwhelm the Axis..) for the Allied player.

Personally, I dont give a damn about the MTO, it has always been mandatory to me. I would like to see a game similar to BTR that would concentrate SOLELY on 8th AAF operations...

Sorry about any spelling errors

There is more to the Allies than the 8th AF
By Early 42 Bomber Command was starting to sort its life out and the Desert Air Force was becoming a major factor. Also Fighter Command was pretty big. This would not mean doing rhubarbs all the time if you dont want to.

And Hitting Rouen and Lille for 6 months... I mean come on isnt mirroring reality what these games are about? If you have to do that than do it. The game only provides the tools for you imagination. If you can think of something that works than go with it.

[The Dude]

if anyome is offended sorry I just have one hell of a hangover[8D]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

True
but the point is still there, that the air war didn't start in Aug of 43, and if we go with the early air war from the GB side, it was massive and very costly

but while I think it could and should have it's own game, or be included in a different game, I think in BTR it is too different to be in

if that game starts in Jan of 42, how much of a change is going to take place in the GE reseach

not arguing the start. If we want to really get nitpicky the air war over Europe began in 1939 with "nikel" runs by Bomber Command Wimpys and Blenheims. I'm all for historical accuracy but lets face it, this game is HUGE enough as is.....as was USAAF before it (which also started in 43 after the 8th had the mass to at least attempt to fullfill it's daylight bombing doctrine)

BTR of course added BC to the equation doubling the size and scope of the game. Personally, just my opinion but i'm happy with the start date as is. I've only played one BTR PBEM so far.....and in daylight it was an exercise in patience waiting for more effective fighter escorts. BC ops made it tolerable.

[von Shagmeister]

And don't forget years of research have been done on getting the OB correct for a certain date (it's still not perfect but is much better than it was), not to mention trying to include all the targets (and their various states of damage) for that date. To adjust the start date would require a massive amount of work just for the historical research let alone trying to re-write the games code and would push the release date back by months if not years.

von Shagmeister

[Nikademus]

True, i'd rather see design improvements and bug fixes be focused on instead of lengthening an already massively long game and as you said, requiring more OOB research.

[Hard Sarge]

okay just touching some points

the way the game works, we can't really do the Raids that the Allies did, the player or AI is going to mass and hammer any raid the Allies send out in early 43,late 42, where in real life, only token forces were used, compared to what the player is going to put up



ahhh, if we have a game with the 8th, you got to have the 15th, you could make a point about the tac AF's, but once you add in the 8th and 15th, you got to add in the Tac

the Air war, is all of that combine, plus more (I would like add in the Transport commands also, but other then targets, I am not sure how we could)

[Nikademus]

Commando raids on German factories conducting Jet research!!!!!


ooooooooooo...................

[Augenstein]

This is a bit offtopic but still:

HS: yes, the raids flown in early 1943 by AI wouldnt not be 100% historically realistic, but there are similar problems with the current start dates when playing as Axis: During the first turns in the long campaign the Allied AI would send idiotic raids deep into Germany flying straight through areas covered with flak (without sufficient and well planned fighter escorts), resulting in approx. 80 B-17's shot down, which, in my opinion is not very historically accurate. But this doesnt bother me, as I only play Allied.

von Shagmeister: I dont really mind if the release of this game was delayed for 6 months or even more. I want this to become the bench mark for strategic war games.

It is such a shame if the early days of the 8th AAF doesnt get covered. No-one can deny the importance of the learning curve the 8th AAF took during it's first year of operations. The 8th AAF (along with the Bomber Command) was the decisive factor in winning the war for Allies.

If these fixes cannot be included in BTR, which I perfectly understand, it would be great to see a game similar to BTR devoted to 8th AAF operations only (any plans for this kind of game, Matrix representatives?), as BTR in it's current form (it is already too decisive covering both the ETO and MTO) cannot go any deeper to reflect the daylight bombing campaign in full scale.

[HMSWarspite]

I would like to second the 'don't extend it, make it better' school. Whilst the early 8AF days (and earlier BC raids for that matter) would be interesting, there were just there as a learning experience, and a token effort because that was all that could be done. The learning is impossible to simulate (as players we know it all already, and it would be a major tear up/effort to have crew experience be governed by how well you do the early years. The token effort has little or no effect on the game, and would be a long slow play of single BG raids, or rubarbs. I would not contemplate playing these without significant UI changes . If I could set up a 1942 raid day in 30secs, I might play. As Ge, I would still have to sit through every day, so probably wouldn't.

Put the effort into things like more way points, better Ge Industry model, more control on bomb loads, and more sophisticated target damage model maybe, for the period we have got, rather than extending an already long game (Hands up all those who have actually finished more than one PBEM 700 turns yet?[&o])

I would say 'just my 2p worth', but I am thinking of applying supermodel rates, and since I am out of bed, it must be 'just my £10000 worth'[;)]

[Hard Sarge]

Well, not sure what I can say or should say, or shouldn't say

but over all, would say, BTR and BoB will be what they are, hopefully much improved, almost new games with in the same over all system

now what is in store for down the road, I am not sure, but hopeflly, a even bigger version of BTR

yikes, a 700 PBM game ?
I know I have won the game twice as the Allies, which have had about 15 games that were close to half way though, stopped to get started on a new OOB testing and what not
I think I may have the Shortest Allied win on record

but overall, I don't think there are many who can claim to have won the game as the Allies (from the other fourm, I think it was still under 10 times the numbers of winners, and I believe 2 of those were from the 44 start)

(I think Swift has won it as the Allies twice also, and has a number of GE wins also)