Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
In 1941 we took a little trip
Along with Colonel Horii down to mighty Singapore
We took a little sushi and we took a little rice
And we caught the bloody British in the town of Kula Lumpar
Toast:
I think this is another area of the game that is adversely affected by the over-abundance of supply and shipping. The use of supples is supposed to be the thing that puts the breaks on Japanese re-tooling factories for either production or research but because supplies and the ability to ship them are too easy for the Japanese, then they are free to do that with no dire consequences. Makes for very unrealistic (I am not saying un-historical because once you give the player control of production and upgrade paths, everything is going to be un-historical) results.
The upgrade path problem can easily be fixed. Don't turn on player allowed upgrade paths. It will definitely cause things to diverge from history very quickly and if that would decrease your enjoyment of the game, only play with opponents who don't want to investigate those alternatives.
The supply problem remains in all aspects of the game, however.
Toast:
Your point about the Japanese is well taken. It would be very difficult to get exact numbers and we would just have to come up with the right "feel" for it. My experience playing the Japanese in a PBEM is supply and shipping are not a serious constraint on their operations like it was in real life. Specifically with retooling and expanding factories, it does suck up a lot of supplies very quickly and when I made major changes to production, the supplies in the Home Island disappeared very quickly. I thought I was going to be in serious trouble, but I quickly found out that there were tons of supply sitting in the DEI and all I had to do was send some shipping out to pick it up and bring it back.
With the civilian economy not modelled at all in the game, I think it would take a lot of tweaking to give the Japanese player the same strategic dilemmas faced by the actual high command. IRL, the thing limiting major operations in India, Hawaii or Australia was not neccessarily the troops (although I think the Japanese land forces are extremely over-rated in the game - the Japanese Army was essentially a light infantry army and could not stand up to any major Western Army. They never learned the major lesson of WWI as espoused by Gen Foch in the famous quote "fire kills." But that is another thread entirely), but the logisitcs support.
Back to the subject of production changes: as it stands the Japanese player can re-tool factories and expand them with little consequences. I personally don't mind giving the Japanese player the ability to change production or upgrade path for aircraft. I am aware this will result in very ahistorical results: the player has the hindsight to know that superior Allied aircraft are on the way and they need the later models of IJN and IJA aircraft just to keep from being slaughtered. We can not eliminate player historical knowledge (or lack if it in my case). But their should be a trade-off, a cost for doing that. The supply used in doing this should curtail offensive ablilties or severely strain the ability to keep troops supplied at the fringes of the empire. If a Guadacanal happens in the middle of the re-tooling effort, then the ability to counter-attack in a major way AND keep the re-tooling effort going should be compromised.
Anyway, that is my $0.02. I have two PBEM games going, one as the Japanese and one as the Allied. I find the Allied logisitcs more difficult to manage becasue both sides have abundant shipping and supplies but the Allies have further distances and exterior lines. From what little I know of history, I know the Japanese were never able to take advantage of interior lines for defense because of limited logisitcs support and limited shipping. If the Japanese player wants to take advantage of the interior lines in the Pacific, it should cost him the ability to go on the offensive in all other theaters and cost him the ability to make major changes in production. I don't mind the Japanese player being able to "change history", it is just unrealistic to be able to do it on all fronts at the same time.
I should have said in my last post that I didn't mess with the Japanese production until June, 1942 AFTER SRA had been conquered. After that is conquered, all breaks are off.
I think the game modeled the predicament the Japanese found themselves in in 1941 very well. It is just after the initial 6 months that it starts to break down and gives the Japanese player too many options. Or rather the ability to do too much without logisitics being a problem.
I think in my experience as the Japanese player, I had the distinct advantage of reading all the excellent advise from the Forum and studying the AAR's so I was prepared. Some things did catch me off guard, like how much supply is sucked up when I changed production. But taht was quickly solved when I realized how much supply was stock-piling in SRA. I actually supply all my front line bases with supply from SRA and still ship some of the extra supplies to the Home Island. This is for Mogami, Frag, Nik, Oz and any other person who did not understand my point about magic supply. No shipping FROM Japan is necessary so where do all the home built TOE replacements come from? Right from the front lines where there is no HI.
I don't want to be too negative here. The abundnace of supply for the Japanese does only come after SRA is conquered. To my mind it is a major contributing factor to the bloodiness and speed of the game. You can throw well-supplied troops at each other in much large numbers and more often than was historically possible and those troops recover fatigue faster and can fight again sooner. Of course bloody and fast games are a lot of fun too.
And on a positive note, I think the games models the Japanese logisitcs dilemma in the first 6 to 9 months of the war very well. The over abundance of supply is not a gamebreaker or detract from my enjoyment of the game. It just allows some of the unrealistic play of the Japanese that can drive other players nuts.
ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn
We're unlikely to get any satisfaction from this crowd. As always, the attitude from the company and the company's glad-handers is completely negative, and so the prospects of cooperation from that quarter remain correspondingly hopeless. Which leaves us either to play the Japanese side, or find a couple of well-versed Japanese players willing to fully exploit the system's logistics issues for purposes of this test.
Plus, I note that there has been no agreement (unless I somehow missed that, in which case I apologize ahead of time) by Ray to commit to any meaningful change to the system no matter the result of the test, and as that's (apparently) the case one is forced to wonder what good purpose the exercise might serve, other than to point out the obvious, that the logistics model is no good.
I suppose in a way we could do that on our own, but unfortunately my lack of experience with the production model limits my usefulness on the Japanese side in that respect. Can't speak for you. But in an operational sense we could easily show that the Japanese are capable of all sorts of incredible feats. Along that line I'd suggest that we open up play on both sides of the board simultaneously, then play as if WitP were a kind of board game. That would at least serve to illustrate the system's more obvious errors, though it strikes me as a waste of time in other respects. Then again, the two of us might learn the Japanese production end of things better, a kind of personal bonus, though hardly to the point.
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn
We're unlikely to get any satisfaction from this crowd. As always, the attitude from the company and the company's glad-handers is completely negative, and so the prospects of cooperation from that quarter remain correspondingly hopeless. Which leaves us either to play the Japanese side, or find a couple of well-versed Japanese players willing to fully exploit the system's logistics issues for purposes of this test.
Plus, I note that there has been no agreement (unless I somehow missed that, in which case I apologize ahead of time) by Ray to commit to any meaningful change to the system no matter the result of the test, and as that's (apparently) the case one is forced to wonder what good purpose the exercise might serve, other than to point out the obvious, that the logistics model is no good.
I suppose in a way we could do that on our own, but unfortunately my lack of experience with the production model limits my usefulness on the Japanese side in that respect. Can't speak for you. But in an operational sense we could easily show that the Japanese are capable of all sorts of incredible feats. Along that line I'd suggest that we open up play on both sides of the board simultaneously, then play as if WitP were a kind of board game. That would at least serve to illustrate the system's more obvious errors, though it strikes me as a waste of time in other respects. Then again, the two of us might learn the Japanese production end of things better, a kind of personal bonus, though hardly to the point.
I have a short little ziabatsu CEO to sort out the production for us if this game actually happens. Serious Japanese player who is willing to assist us as I mentioned previously. Also, this game can't be a few turns a week affair. A few turns a day maybe but a few a week will be too slow.
We're unlikely to get any satisfaction from this crowd.
I note that there has been no agreement (unless I somehow missed that, in which case I apologize ahead of time) by Ray to commit to any meaningful change to the system no matter the result of the test
ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
We're unlikely to get any satisfaction from this crowd.
Gee buddy, what more do you want, I've already committed to paying for WitP II outta my own pocket knowing I'm likely to loose at least $40K of my own money! [8|]
I note that there has been no agreement (unless I somehow missed that, in which case I apologize ahead of time) by Ray to commit to any meaningful change to the system no matter the result of the test
The point of the *test* is to show that a change would be meaningfull [;)]
Without supporting data, change = never (unless Mike himself likes it - being the programmer gives you a couple of perks) [;)]
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I'm hoping change is possible, after all it is about improving the game, nothing else.
ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I'm hoping change is possible, after all it is about improving the game, nothing else.
That is not what it is about and never was. If it were we wouldn't be where we are today.
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I'm hoping change is possible, after all it is about improving the game, nothing else.
That is not what it is about and never was. If it were we wouldn't be where we are today.
"It" being my motivation. I can't speak for anyone else.
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I'd seriously like to see a variety of players post there Allied or Japanese logistics and geographical details for examination.
ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Sure TJ ... whatever ... just another cop out ... where's my design document?
So what kind of penalty clause am I putting in? Where's *your* escrow for me to draw against when you turn out to be all talk?
How about a 10% penalty ... you put up 6,000 to my 60,000 ... if I don't have the design by the end of March, the 6 is mine free and clear.
Mogami, Nik, Ron, Apollo, and Don can vote on the design doc being valid which frees your 6k back up. (although using Ron is probably bad for YOU cause he's never happy)
Consider it my investment protection against you, or as you put it "Money talks, bullshit walks" [;)]
But you see "you" don't count because "you" personally have done more to harm this game then everyone else put together.
That was never part of the deal. I offered nothing. You said you were prepared to pay for a different design. That's a matter of public record, Ray.
I'm offering to pay for all the coding ... I'm sure Matrix will publish it ... come on ... all I want is the rules (aka design document)
