War in Europe 1939

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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Redd
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RE: War in Europe 1939

Post by Redd »

Have you tried Gary's World at War? If so, how do you view that product all around vis-a-vis HOI II?


No, I haven't tried that game yet. I did a little research on it in the forums, and it doesn't look half bad. Kind of like Axis and allies taken to the next level. As far as HOI goes, I'll probobly go back at some point and try out the mods. But as of right now I think that I'll be playing Witp on a daily basis for quite some time to come. It's pretty unfulfilling to try to play HOI when I can play a game where I get to watch the bombs and torpedos take out the ships one by one. I just love the suspense as you wait to see if you hit or miss.[:D][X(][:@]

I have wasted way too many hours on HOI I & II micromanaging my builds, working through the tech tree, getting my army built up just the way that I want it, only to find that I can always wipe out the AI because it's just barely there. Everyone malignes the AI in Witp, but so far I have noticed that it often reacts to my moves quite well. Not as well as a human for sure, but it's not totally MIA either. I'm sure that once I get into PBEM I'll be totally hooked.
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Rob Brennan UK
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RE: War in Europe 1939

Post by Rob Brennan UK »

ORIGINAL: Redd
Have you tried Gary's World at War? If so, how do you view that product all around vis-a-vis HOI II?


No, I haven't tried that game yet. I did a little research on it in the forums, and it doesn't look half bad. Kind of like Axis and allies taken to the next level. As far as HOI goes, I'll probobly go back at some point and try out the mods. But as of right now I think that I'll be playing Witp on a daily basis for quite some time to come. It's pretty unfulfilling to try to play HOI when I can play a game where I get to watch the bombs and torpedos take out the ships one by one. I just love the suspense as you wait to see if you hit or miss.[:D][X(][:@]

I have wasted way too many hours on HOI I & II micromanaging my builds, working through the tech tree, getting my army built up just the way that I want it, only to find that I can always wipe out the AI because it's just barely there. Everyone malignes the AI in Witp, but so far I have noticed that it often reacts to my moves quite well. Not as well as a human for sure, but it's not totally MIA either. I'm sure that once I get into PBEM I'll be totally hooked.

Yes you will ! .. its a life sapper for sure [:D][:D]
sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)
Arstavidios
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RE: War in Europe 1939

Post by Arstavidios »

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

ORIGINAL: Redd

ORIGINAL: Jonny_B

Mr Arstavidios

The first HOI sucked really bad

HOI 2 is a great move forward on all levels
Still you must install the two patches for even better game play
However this game will never rival witp


Mr Arstividios, I read your post at least half an hour ago, and I haven't been able to stop swearing at my monitor ever since. Not at you, of course, but at the travesty that is HOI II. I feel cheated by Paradox on this one more than any other game that I've ever bought (and I own many worthless titles).

HOI I had it's shortcomings. Of course it did. They converted EU II (you had to pay for that one twice as well) into a WW II game, and when they ran out of billable hours they released it. Fair enough, everbody's gotta eat. Then they converted it to Victoria to fill in the timeline gap between EU II and HOI I. I bought that title mostly to support Paradox, but I was quite underwhelmed.

Then they let out that the boys were workind on HOI II. Everyone on the forum was ecstatic. Paradox forums are great, much like this one. There were at least as many calls on that board for a second coming as there were on this one. Mods are numerous, and Paradox goes out of their way to export variables so that people can monkey with the system. Not just moderators show up, but the guys writing the code show up and answer questions ( and on many occasions even ask some ). Patches and bugfixes are legendary in their proportions. So there was every reason to believe that HOI II would be the next evolution of a game that showed lots of promise, but was obviously in need of more developement time and money.

But oddly enough that's not the way that it went. For some reason they decided to go for some kind of cosmetic makeover, but they didn't really tackle any of the serious issues that were holding the game back. IMHO they squandered their time and money on incontsiquential (sp?) BS when they should have been in the trenches slogging through the hard stuff and turning that game into something that they could have been truly proud of. Unfortunately, after forking over my hard earned cash, I was left with EXACTLY the same bad taste in my mouth as I got from the first release.[:-]

But to get back to the original question of the thread, the reason why they can't make the game is because it's not economically viable. The first guy to show up with $60k to burn (and a legitamate plan) gets to call the shots.[8D]

Wait a minute, thats for WITP II. For WITP in europe it's probobly more like $250k. (And a serious plan).[&:]

That pretty much sums it up. You have Paradox pegged accurately, a company that's not all bad, not all good, a kind of mixed bag of delicious ideas often foundering on the rocks of jagged implementation, and while no doubt much of this owes to insufficient funding, suspect management of these projects plays a role, too. Also, I've always wondered about these wargame business plans themselves. Who buys the games we speak to (in the main), and wouldn't these people pay more for better product up front? I've always said that I would. Would you?

Anyway, and as you rightly point out, at least with HOI games much is amenable to change, with version 1.8 of the Total Realism Project (pretty good work, that) due out this week according to information posted on that website. (And I wonder how many European players are not downloading that mod because of the Nazi flags.)

Have you tried Gary's World at War? If so, how do you view that product all around vis-a-vis HOI II?



Well, I was expecting much more from HOI2 than what was actually delivered, IMO the improvements on HOI are not worth buying a new game so I did not go for it. They did not spend a lot of time on it which was suspect considering all the issues left over . The EU games took several years to develop and they had the board game to stard with which had already taken many years to develop.

I get the feeling that markenting and financial considerations take the upper hand with the result that the products sold are not fully developped and the developpers have to cut short on many things to keep up with the deadlines. The end result is a game that could have been interesting but not worth buying in its current state, that still needs a lot of redesign and development time which means a lot of money to be invested while most of the profits have already been skimmed.

The risk is that the base of customers they acquired with the success of EU will fade away and the game engine will be left to die which means that all the resources of development already been spent into it will have been wasted in vain. [8|]
Ideologue
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RE: War in Europe 1939

Post by Ideologue »

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

Mike Wood is working on War In Russia...

He is? I thought it was indefinitely on hold. :(

I'd love to see it out sometime in the next year or two. It's on my list of "things worth spending $70 on."
Speedysteve
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RE: War in Europe 1939

Post by Speedysteve »

Nope not on hold at all. War in the East (WIE) is full steam ahead and will be a damn fine product i'm sure [8D]
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RE: War in Europe 1939

Post by Ideologue »

ORIGINAL: Redd

But oddly enough that's not the way that it went. For some reason they decided to go for some kind of cosmetic makeover, but they didn't really tackle any of the serious issues that were holding the game back. IMHO they squandered their time and money on incontsiquential (sp?) BS when they should have been in the trenches slogging through the hard stuff and turning that game into something that they could have been truly proud of. Unfortunately, after forking over my hard earned cash, I was left with EXACTLY the same bad taste in my mouth as I got from the first release.[:-]

The good thing about HoI2 is that many parts are fixable, and I've devoted God knows how many hours to doing just that. The bad thing is that the parts that AREN'T fixable--the basically screwed regional air targeting (the air targetting ai's gotten better, but), the code-based problems with how subs are handled, and the fundamental limitations of the ai--can often as not break the game.
Ideologue
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RE: War in Europe 1939

Post by Ideologue »

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Nope not on hold at all. War in the East (WIE) is full steam ahead and will be a damn fine product i'm sure [8D]

You're the second person to make my day today. :D

And the first isn't as important. :P
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Pascal_slith
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RE: War in Europe 1939

Post by Pascal_slith »

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is HOI II?
So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

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Redd
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RE: War in Europe 1939

Post by Redd »

Well, I was expecting much more from HOI2 than what was actually delivered, IMO the improvements on HOI are not worth buying a new game so I did not go for it. They did not spend a lot of time on it which was suspect considering all the issues left over . The EU games took several years to develop and they had the board game to stard with which had already taken many years to develop.

I get the feeling that markenting and financial considerations take the upper hand with the result that the products sold are not fully developped and the developpers have to cut short on many things to keep up with the deadlines. The end result is a game that could have been interesting but not worth buying in its current state, that still needs a lot of redesign and development time which means a lot of money to be invested while most of the profits have already been skimmed.

The risk is that the base of customers they acquired with the success of EU will fade away and the game engine will be left to die which means that all the resources of development already been spent into it will have been wasted in vain.


I couldn't agree with you more. They made a huge mistake in wasteing their resources on trying to make the game different rather than better. I think that the biggest problem at Paradox is that for some reason they don't seem to think that the AI is really all that important. Those guys are all up in Stockholm, at work, getting paid, playing on a LAN so that all of the major players are represented by humans. Every time I saw someone on the forum complain loudly, they were always told by someone that "you know you really should be playing online, that's where the game really shines."

Now, I don't have the box in front of me, but I believe I was promised an AI to play against. It was not sold as a multiplayer only game. I spent hundreds of hours lurking in their forums, and I believe that 90% of the gripes would have been solved if the computer could at least make a decent showing of moving it's units around the map. It just seems to me that if they spent x amount of money to get Y amount of income with HOI I, then if they spent even X*0.5 and only burned hours on programming they could make the game sufficiently better that everyone would be happy.

But instead they changed the UI [&:], changed the way combat works (movement is combat) [>:], made the tech tree simpler (where the hell did that come from?)[:o], took away the sprites (WTF? as far as I can tell most people wanted more sprites)[X(], oh yeah and we get some guy who calls himself Lothos who's gonna get right on that AI thing right after we collect everybodies money [8|].

That game's been out what, like a year now? And the magical 1.3 patch is just coming out now? OK, I'm not a cow, but I think I got milked a time or two here. I mean, I liked their attitude about staying in touch and listening to the players and so on, but I'm not gonna buy the same crap forever.

But in the end I don't think it really matters to me because after playing Witp I don't think I'll ever be happy playing a game as abstracted as HOI I or II. This game is so much better. All the time I was playing HOI I would literally be saying to my self "Man, I wish this game was more like WIR". In other words, I wanted to be able to build units at my discretion but I wanted them to be as detailed as those in WIR and Witp. Infantry divisions "with brigades" are generic and boring.

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Redd
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RE: War in Europe 1939

Post by Redd »

ORIGINAL: Pascal

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is HOI II?

HOI II is Hearts of Iron II by Paradox Entertainment. It is a grand strategic
game of WW II played on a global scale at the divisional level. Sort of. If you like Witp don't waste your time.
Ideologue
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RE: War in Europe 1939

Post by Ideologue »

ORIGINAL: Redd

HOI II is Hearts of Iron II by Paradox Entertainment. It is a grand strategic
game of WW II played on a global scale at the divisional level. Sort of.

Most succint, accurate description ever.
django
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RE: War in Europe 1939

Post by django »

ok.. another idea:
What about a game "War in Europe" (inclusive North Atlantic, Mediterranean) with the main emphasis in air- and sea-combat.
There could be only coastal bases and not inland regions.

Would that be interesting?

In that way perhaps a whole worldmap?
Ideologue
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RE: War in Europe 1939

Post by Ideologue »

It'd be interesting, but so much depends upon ground combat in Europe--and a kind of ground combat WitP, understandably, doesn't even bother to simulate--that it could easily go off the rails.

My main interest in such a game would be the bomber war, and I'm just gonna buy Bombing the Reich for that. :P
Berkut
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RE: War in Europe 1939

Post by Berkut »

The problem with HOI 2, IMO, is that it is semi-ral time, which means it is not conducive to PBEM.

I don't ahve hours at a time to sit down and play over a network, so if it can't be done via PBEM, no wargame is worth the trouble, IMO.

Complaining about the AI? Meh. The best AI ever made still mostly sucks. I've never even played WitP against the AI - what is the point?
Ideologue
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RE: War in Europe 1939

Post by Ideologue »

It can still be fun. :) The ai's hurt me before.

I agree with the criticism of the real-time aspect of HoI2 up to a point. Basically, I decry the fact that I've never been on a network that's ever allowed me to play Paradox games. : /
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String
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RE: War in Europe 1939

Post by String »

ORIGINAL: Arstavidios



Well, I was expecting much more from HOI2 than what was actually delivered, IMO the improvements on HOI are not worth buying a new game so I did not go for it. They did not spend a lot of time on it which was suspect considering all the issues left over . The EU games took several years to develop and they had the board game to stard with which had already taken many years to develop.

I get the feeling that markenting and financial considerations take the upper hand with the result that the products sold are not fully developped and the developpers have to cut short on many things to keep up with the deadlines. The end result is a game that could have been interesting but not worth buying in its current state, that still needs a lot of redesign and development time which means a lot of money to be invested while most of the profits have already been skimmed.

The risk is that the base of customers they acquired with the success of EU will fade away and the game engine will be left to die which means that all the resources of development already been spent into it will have been wasted in vain. [8|]


Um, So you don't own the game yet you critizise it?
Surface combat TF fanboy
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