AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by pyguinard »

September the 14th 1941

After more than two months of intense blitzkrieg, German High Command is more optimistic than ever. Army Group Center is inexorably closing to Moscow eventhough the bolshevik resistance is getting stiffer. Two Panzer Armies (4 Pz Korps each) were given the task of cutting the city from supply while infantry corps are on their way to secure the flanks and add additional pressure to the siege.

On the last week, the Luftwaffe pilots discovered with astonishment that the Red Air Force was no longer absent from the skies. They reappeared in large quantities and succeeded in disrupting the air supply of the vanguard Pz Divisionen near the Sovietic Capital. After losing more than two thousand aircrafts, they one more time disappeared from the sky this week.

In Eastern Ukraine, the defenders look like they lost their will to fight. After two weeks without provisionning the clearing of the pocket has started. Kharkov was captured and about half a dozen Russian Armies surrendered (or shattered). There are not many left by now.

Casualties so far
[font="Courier New"]
AXIS
.......... In turn... Since start
squads.... 632....... 8 051
afvs...... 163....... 2 865
guns...... 53........ 901
aircraft.. 85........ 1747

SOVIET
.......... In turn... Since start
squads.... 4 150..... 58 895
afvs...... 290....... 11 610
guns...... 745....... 20 062
aircraft.. 0......... 8 952 [/font]

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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by Koniev »

It looks kinda bad for the Russians. However, if the freeze hits(any turn now) the vaunted German Army could find itself in trouble. It looks slightly over extended right now. The fact that the Red Air Force made and appearance "in force" and then disappeared, leads me to think that there may be massive reserves in some of those headquarters just waiting for "General Winter".

I'm reminded of the German General (it mat have been Hoth) who commented that "We've already destroyed 200 divisions and now we face another 200!" or words to that effect.

Of course I'm just speaking from the viewpoint of one whose only played the AI.

It could very well be that we are seeing what could have happened had Hitler not interfered with things.
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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by pyguinard »

ORIGINAL: Koniev


I'm reminded of the German General (it mat have been Hoth) who commented that "We've already destroyed 200 divisions and now we face another 200!" or words to that effect.

If Hoth didn't say that, it has to be Von Bock (Army Group Center commander at the end of 1941). In any case, the situation is far from being the same in this scenario mainly because the current date is September 28th instead of December the 5th (end of operation Typhoon)!!

Moscow is under siege!! Another large pinceer manoeuvre has been succesfully attempted by not less than 6 Pz Korps (3 in the North and 3 in the Southern Moscow area). Resistance was minimal and thousands of exhausted unshaven bolshevik disbanded into the Russian Taïga.

Seeing no point in bombing the city into rubbles, Luftwaffe has started dropping leaflets to the civilians urging them to cease resistance and to cooperate with the sympatic german soldiers that were sent only to shake off the yoke of Stalin's Communist Party. [;)]

In the South, the huge Kharkov Kassel was totally annihilated. Voronej and Rostov seem to be the next two attainable objectives before the winter.

On the Northern Theatre, the remnants of the Baltic defenders were also deprived from any supply when the IVth Pz Army was able to reach and cut the Tivkhin-Vologda Railway.

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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by Morphy »

As I once said:

In WiR 3.3 Germans always win 1941 campaign unless German player makes mistakes.

It doesn't matter what Soviet player does: good Soviet player can only postpone his final defeat.
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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by Koniev »

Do you think that may be historically accurate? As I mentioned above, Hitler interfered with AG Centre and North during the winter of 41 against the advice of his generals. What we may be seeing in this AAR is what could have happened if ld Adolph had left things in the hands of the pros.
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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by pyguinard »

ORIGINAL: Koniev

Do you think that may be historically accurate? As I mentioned above, Hitler interfered with AG Centre and North during the winter of 41 against the advice of his generals. What we may be seeing in this AAR is what could have happened if ld Adolph had left things in the hands of the pros.

I don't think so. According to the vast majority of WWII historians, the major mistake was to take care of Kiev thus delaying the offensive towards Moscow. Although with some variants, I did the exact same "mistake".

By the way, to some historians (like Fugate - http://militera.lib.ru/h/fugate/06.html ) Hitler was not interfering as much we think in the beginning of the Barbarossa Operation. He was constantly under pressure of different faction from his staff (Halder, Goering, Jödl, etc.). He was trying very hard to get a clear picture out of contradictory advises and took the decision to make Guderian's Panzers turn South, towards the Ukrainian defenders after lots of hesitations.

If after the Battle of Smolensk, Army Group Center had been given orders to rush directly towards Moscow, would the Wermacht have been able to the capture of the Soviet Capital? Again, opinions diverge. While some say that without a doubt they would have been able to achieve their objectives, some others state that it would have been impossible because of the strong forces (in Ukraine) that might have threaten AGC's right flank. I tend to agree with the second opinion.

As far as WiR 3.3 is concerned, Morphy is right: "It doesn't matter what Soviet player does: good Soviet player can only postpone his final defeat." If I was able to take care of Kiev AND isolate Moscow as soon as I did, it was because in the last week of July, my opponent allowed me to cross the Dnepr River (North of Kiev - see the sceen capture) too easily wich allowed me to attack Gomel, Bryansk and Smolensk without having to take the -66% river penalty. It must have saved my panzers at least 3 weeks.
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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by pyguinard »

After some horrible set back, the German Attackers were not able to capture Moscow before the terrible '41 blizzard. Even worst, the Red Army with the help of atrociously cold temperatures were able to recapture Leningrad, push the Wermacht away from Moscow and fortify their position during the spring rasputista.1

On the Northern Sector of activities, the Germans are waiting for the occasion to re-capture Leningrad. Both XVIIIth and XVIth Korps are solidly entrenched and are ready to launch an offensive that may allow them to capture Tivkhin thus, cutting supply to the city of Leningrad that has been resupplied through Lake Ladoga since it was recaptured.

Army Group Center is trying to drive the Russians out of their fortified positions. Two Panzer Korps have succeeded in breaking through the russian line of defense and succeeded in cutting the Moscow-Tula railroad. They also shattered two soviet HQs including Zhukov's Western Front. Although the soviet resistance in the area is still very strong, they seem to have shifted too much forces towards Rhzev and Tula leaving the Moscow surroundings praticly defenseless. AGC comanders are feeling that it is a matter of days before the city is once more encircled.

As mentionned above, a strong garrison defending Tula are cut from supply and the lines must not be reestablished before they will be totally anhnihilated (let's be optimistic here! [;)]). In a worst case scenario, they won't be able to assist in the defense of Moscow nor Voronezh where the situation also deteriorated in the last weeks.

In the South, the VIth Army is heading East, directly towards Stalingrad. Rostov will serve as a jump off position to conquer the Caucasus oil fields but some confusion happened and the Ist Pz Army has ran into trouble: it has been isolated just after the turn that is illustrated below.

Casualties so far

[font="Courier New"]AXIS
.......... In turn... Since start
squads.... 553....... 6 703
afvs...... 171....... 1 410
guns...... 106....... 3 291
aircraft.. 60........ 1176

SOVIET
.......... In turn... Since start
squads.... 2 554...... 7 738
afvs...... 200........ 1 145
guns...... 1 210...... 3 325
aircraft.. 0.......... 1 858 [/font]
1 Seriously, Savanniperkele and I have started another game (camp '42) with a two week truce to allow redeployment of the Red Army before the summer '42 offensive.

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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by Koniev »

Well, looks like General Winter has something to say after all. Am I reading your map correctly? Did the Germans lose 2 Armored Korps in front of Moscow? This is not good.
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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by pyguinard »

ORIGINAL: Koniev

Well, looks like General Winter has something to say after all. Am I reading your map correctly? Did the Germans lose 2 Armored Korps in front of Moscow? This is not good.

The units with a black X near Moscow were Russian HQs.
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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by pyguinard »

August 9th 1942

There has been heavy fighting all along the front line with the exception of the Northern Area. The Germans had to pay a dear price anywhere they tried out-manoeuver the Soviets but nevertheless, they managed to overrun Moscow with a sharp combined attack from two Pz Korps. Engineer battalions immediately started taking care of the production facilities and should have completed their destruction during the next week. However, since the supply lines to the (former) Russian Capital are not secured yet, anything could happen to the brave conquerers.

The Voronezh surroundings have been cleared from any organized resistance when a (not so long ago) strong 1st Tank Army surrendered, bringing down with him two weakened Army Corps. This is especially good news for OKW since reinforcements were anxiously awaited in the Tula area where the IInd Pz Army has taken a severe beating in the last two weeks wich culminated with the surrender of strong units.

VIth Army is still slowly advancing towards Stalingrad while XVIIth Army and Ist Pz Army are attempting a breakthrough into the Caucasus. An attempt to eliminate a Russian Tank Army failed short but Hoepner and Rundstedt are still confident.




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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by Koniev »

The figures "to date" look suspiciously small and nearly equal. The last map shows a single thrust toward the capital with dangerously long and vulnerable flanks. If the Reds were able to get the important industries out of Moscow (and L'grad) then the Germans might not have done as much harm as they would have liked.

There are a lot of Russian armies around and a great many Shock forces. I don't like the divergence of the attack southeastward. This could get very interesting if, as I mentioned before, the Russians have managed to preserve large reserves.
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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by pyguinard »

ORIGINAL: pyguinard


[font="Courier New"]AXIS
.......... In turn... Since start
squads.... 553....... 6 703
afvs...... 171....... 1 410
guns...... 106....... 3 291
aircraft.. 60........ 1176

SOVIET
.......... In turn... Since start
squads.... 2 554...... 7 738
afvs...... 200........ 1 145
guns...... 1 210...... 3 325
aircraft.. 0.......... 1 858 [/font]
1 Seriously, Savanniperkele and I have started another game (camp '42) with a two week truce to allow redeployment of the Red Army before the summer '42 offensive.

Sorry to quote myself but it was just to make clear that we started a new '42 scenario while pretending (in a role playing perspective) that we are still pursuing the original battle...
ORIGINAL: Koniev

(...)
The last map shows a single thrust toward the capital with dangerously long and vulnerable flanks. If the Reds were able to get the important industries out of Moscow (and L'grad) then the Germans might not have done as much harm as they would have liked.

There are a lot of Russian armies around and a great many Shock forces. I don't like the divergence of the attack southeastward. This could get very interesting if, as I mentioned before, the Russians have managed to preserve large reserves.

I have to confess that my plan is not sparkling with refinement. Since the beginning of that second scenario, with great skill, Savanniperkele managed to shatter many good german units, including Pz Grenadiers Divisions and I thought that the only way left to avoid being totally outnumbered in the upcoming winter was to capture Moscow at all cost.

Now, since I doubt that they were able to rail factories out, I am pretty sure that the Soviets are low on Ressources and Heavy Industry (both at ~75-80). What I am trying to figure out is how much will this handicap hurt the production of weapon. [&:]

The Shock Armies South of Moscow were low on supply in the previous 2-3 turns thus, I hope I will have the opportunity to consolidate my gain with the help of the Oka River.
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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by Koniev »

Of course, I should have realized those figures were for the second game.

I'm still concerned about those long flanks. They look good on Las Vegas showgirls but not on a battle map. I hope that you won't lose interest in the first game because I'm very interested in what happens when the blizzards start.
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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by pyguinard »

CHANCELLOR ADOLF HITLER'S ADDRESS AT THE OPENING OF THE WINTER RELIEF CAMPAIGN
Berlin, August 23, 1942

Foreign Broadcast Monitoring Service, Federal Communications Commission.

My German countrymen and countrywomen! It is now a year since I was last able to speak to you and to the German people from this place. In retrospect, it is in many ways to be regretted, first because I myself very much regret not being able to stand oftener before the nation, and second because I am naturally afraid that my speeches thereby are becoming worse rather than better, for in this regard practice is necessary. All this time I have really had to be busy managing and doing rather than speaking.

The historic successes of these last months have been so stupendous that it is really necessary to think of those to whom we owe these successes. For we read in the newspapers of great victories, of great battles of encirclement; but often for weeks we also read nothing at all except that "the operations are progress in," or "the operations are progressing favorably," or "such and such fronts are quiet" or "on other fronts attacks have been repulsed." My comrades, you have no idea what is concealed under the simple words of the communiqué of the Highest Leadership of the Armed Forces. The communiqué must remain terse. In it we must try to find an equilibrium in order to view the actual deeds with regard to their importance in relation to the whole.

In the last week, some might think that the battles around Moscow have been a terrible setback for the worthy Wermacht. On paper, it looks as if we were driven out of the region with terrible losses in panzers, artillery and manpower. Those who see a defeat in those events are terribly mistaking. Those hundreds of tanks that we intentionnaly left to the ennemy were already obsolete; they will be replaced by newer models, more efficient. This action was done to inveigle those stupid bolsheviksthe, to give them the false impression that the Wermacht is weaker than it is in reality.

In the last two months we have pushed to the Don, down the Don, finally almost reached the Volga, ready to attack Stalingrad - and we shall take it, too, you can depend on that. We are now pushing on to the Caucasus, while we still occupy the Ukraine. We will get the Donetz coal into our possession. We will get 65 or 70 percent of Russian iron and we actually open up to the German people, and thereby to Europe, the largest grain area of the world. We secure for ourselves the sources of oil there.

After all these successes, the moment will come to consolidate our gains. The time for big encirclement manoeuvers is over. Henceforth, we will harrass our ennemy with skirmishes, limited in scope to wear him down. We will take him by surprise at places where he least expects us to come.

Let our adversaries conduct this war as long as they are able to do so. What we can do in order to beat them, we certainly will do. That they ever will beat us is impossible and out of the question.

Nationalist Socialist Germany and the states which are allied with her will come out of this war with a glorious victory as young nations, as real peoples' states.

I must say that many parts of this "make-over" came from a genuine speech from Adolf, pronounced on September 30, 1942.

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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by pyguinard »

ORIGINAL: Koniev

(...)

I hope that you won't lose interest in the first game because I'm very interested in what happens when the blizzards start.

Believe us my friend, the first game had become really hopeless for the Russians. Savanniperkele was throwing unarmed opolochenie (militia) into the battle because most of the guns and tanks had been captured in the South of Leningrad at first and then around Kharkov. The army shells were already fortified around Moscow but there was nothing left to put inside! [:D]

You will see some blizzard fighting in this 1942 campaign however since it looks obvious that I was unable to route the Russians as I was hoping...
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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by pyguinard »

September 6th, 1942

As it was expected, the Führer's speech helped an exhausted Wermacht to regain some momentum. For those who could read between the lines, Army Group Center has taken a severe beating because OKW didn't listen to our fellow club member (Koniev) when he blew the whistle on that huge flank protruding out of Vyazma towards Moscow.

In order to give some rest to the remnants of IXth Army and IIIrd Pz Army, a diversion attack was launched by the XVIIIth Army in the direction of the Volkhov River. After breeching the front line, reinforcements were hastily sent to prevent the Germans from crossing the river in the direction of Tivkhin. The Russians also had to pull away from Demyansk because supply lines were cut.

After some refitting, Army Group Center is back on the offensive and managed to make two important Russian Formations surrender, East of Moscow. Close to 400 tanks were captured and the Moscovits will probably see more fighting before the Autumn Rasputista arrives.

Further South, the Wiking SS PzG Division, ready for fighting after a long rest in Italy, took the Russians by surprise on their approach to Voronezh. Probably elated by the smell of victory, the Soviets might have outrun their supply lines and got routed by the Panzer Grenadiers. Many prisonners were taken.

The battle for Stalingrad has started. Let's see what happens...

Casualty Report:
[font="Courier New"]
AXIS
.......... In turn... Since start
squads.... 683...... 19 443
afvs...... 138....... 4 286
guns...... 160....... 9 925
aircraft.. 94........ 3 690

SOVIET
.......... In turn... Since start
squads.... 4 380..... 32 271
afvs...... 466........ 3 765
guns...... 1 469..... 12 847
aircraft.. 0.......... 4 671 [/font]

Although the German losses in tank are astronomical, I am hoping that the destruction of the Moscow factories and incessant Strategic Bombing will hamper the growth of the Red Army's Arsenal... [&:]

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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by whollaborg »

30.8.1942
After a long silence Kreml speaks again.
Radios all over the Rodina are turned on:

"Tavaritscha Steel greets mighty Rodina and it's workers armies. Fasists have been beaten to surrender in Moscow area. Now strong soviet armies are concentrating their efforts on beating back enemy that took pieces of Rodina in north and south."

"Zhukov cleared Moscow and now he's defending Stalingrad, my city."

"Malinovskii continues dishing out havoc amongst enemy formations in southwest from Moscow. 4th Shock army has been enormously efficient with its guards tank regiments.
This week Bryansk front evaporated four corps again. This summer Bryansk Guards Front has destroyed atleast dozen of german corps and couple of armies including one full panzer army. Total count of shattered and surrendered german formations is already huge."

"...We have managed to spring our trap in the Maikop area, the city which guards the Kaukasian oil. Circa 20 enemy divisons are surrendered and few left are soon to be slaughtered. Nazis approaching stalingrad are in grave danger of being cut out of supply in thousands of kilometers away from their lines. And the winter draws nearer..."

"The coming winter will be the end for the invaders,
The Final fight for the freedom of the workers of Soviet Union begins!
Tavaritscha Stalin out."
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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by pyguinard »

September 27, 1942

All operations in Southern Russia have been cancelled this week. At Stalingrad, despite being able to cross the Volga and isolate the city, attemps of circumvallation failed with the loss of two Pz Korps (over 300 tanks). On the roads to Maikop, the situation was almost as catastrophic. The surviving units are trying to evade both sectors at the moment.

On other regions of the front, the situation is much more encouraging. The strategic withdrawal, West of Moscow is still on its way and two strong Russian Units sent to block the retreat path had to surrender. Further south, the once mighty 4th Shock Army was caught without supply for a full week when the rail line (just north of the Oka River) had been cut. Wiking SS and Großdeutschland Mot. were sent on a raid to suppress any retreat path while three Army Korps did the job after a creeping barrage.

The countdown has started for Leningrad. Tivkhin finally fell to the german assailants while the besiegers (scraped out of the VIth Army at Stalingrad) are taking place around the City of Peter the Great. The near future is uncertain since heavy rains could start at any moment.

Casualty Report:

[font="Courier New"]AXIS
.......... In turn... Since start
squads.... 637...... 35 971
afvs....... 84....... 5 685
guns...... 144...... 14 114
aircraft.. 114....... 4 753

SOVIET
.......... In turn... Since start
squads.... 2 985..... 43 197
afvs........ 654...... 5 248
guns...... 1 358..... 16 579
aircraft.... 151...... 6 524 [/font]




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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by DavidFaust »

I was expecting to see a much stronger Soviet stance in this game.
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RE: AAR - Savanniperkele vs Pyguinard

Post by pyguinard »

ORIGINAL: kingtiger_501

I was expecting to see a much stronger Soviet stance in this game.

What makes you say that?
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