Dealing with mines

[mickbeau1]

My friend and are playing our first game. I'm playing the Allies he's Japan. It is now June 42 and he is doing well in China and the SRA, but he didn't make a big play in the Pacific, so I still control a reinforced Rabul. So I have a fairly sneaky suspicion that we have both been sewing the pacific with mines and CD units. I don't really have time to play test and play -- so how does one go about doing an amphibious operation against a heavily mined area. Can we use MSWs or will the CD guns just get them?

[Feinder]

The most cautious approach would be

Bomb the crap out of him before doing anything. Set your bombers to Port Attack, they'll be more likely to hit the CD guns that way.

Create a bombardment TF with some of your "DMS" ships (fast destroyer minesweepers). They're fast enought to keep up with your bombardment TFs, but have a terrible range.

Use your bombardment TF (with the DMS, about 4 of them), to bombard the enemy base. Set your TF to "escorts NOT bombard". This will minimize your exposure to both mines and the CD guns. Blow the snot out of him.

Do this for two weeks. Constantly fly recon aircraft. The recons will up your damage on attacks, and keep you appraised of how badly shot up he is.

When you hover the mouse over his base, you'll see the port and AF damage percentages. Rack these numbers up to over 90. Stop for 2 or 3 days. If the numbers decrease (he is repairing), blow the snot out of him again. Rest for 3 days. Check again.

When he gets to the point where you don't see the damage percentage going DOWN, it means he is low or out of supplies. This makes the CD guns and his LCUs all but ineffectual (defend at 25% strength), now it's time to invade.

-F-

[Mr.Frag]

My friend and are playing our first game. I'm playing the Allies he's Japan. It is now June 42 and he is doing well in China and the SRA, but he didn't make a big play in the Pacific, so I still control a reinforced Rabul. So I have a fairly sneaky suspicion that we have both been sewing the pacific with mines and CD units. I don't really have time to play test and play -- so how does one go about doing an amphibious operation against a heavily mined area. Can we use MSWs or will the CD guns just get them?

Be aware of my *favourate* code fix in WitP [:D]

Mine Sweeping automatically wakes up the CD's who fight back. So combining CD units + mines in a hex makes for some nice defences.

In the old days, you would sail a MSW one hex away and let it clear the mines without any harm coming to it. [:-]

When dealing with CD + Mine, you have no choice but to go in heavy with ships to protect the MSW and duel it out with the CD's ... no more cakewalks!

[niceguy2005]

Feinders approach is good (in fact very sound) but maybe overly cautious IMHO. I like the idea of the bombardment TF. Go in with BBs and CAs escorted by DMs. This will soften the CDs. Then hit the beaches hard with overwhelming INF and ARM escorted by lots of MSW. You may take a couple of mine hits, but most of your force should make it ashore.

P.S. Don't forget plenty of supplies for that invasion force.

[Mr.Frag]

You may take a couple of mine hits, but most of your force should make it ashore.

Just make sure you have a port nearby to deal with floatation damage[;)]

[niceguy2005]

Ah, what's the loss of a few AP/AK? This is war man!

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

You may take a couple of mine hits, but most of your force should make it ashore.

Just make sure you have a port nearby to deal with floatation damage[;)]

[Mr.Frag]

Ah, what's the loss of a few AP/AK? This is war man!

It ain't the AP/AK that you worry about, it's the BB/CA's in the bombardment group that go glug glug glug ...

[Nick E]

Do 75mm Field Guns work the same way as CD guns against ships?

[niceguy2005]

An opponent recently invaded Chandpur, which was protected by CD guns and 600+ mines. His Bombardment TF didn't hit a single mine. His transport TF hit many and he did loose several APs, but he still got the better part of three divisions ashore, they are dinged up pretty good, but mostly intact.

Most CD units have at worst a few 6in guns. This will deter small invasions, but not massive ones.

Like I said, if you have the time for Feinders method that is a good way to go, but brute force also works - unless it is someplace like Singapore or Corrigador.

[Mike Solli]

600? You're missing a 0, that's all.[:D]

(Ted, come get me.[:D])

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

600? You're missing a 0, that's all.[:D]

(Ted, come get me.[:D])

Probably, but that would be very gamey.

I don't have numbers to back this up, but mines were used much less extensively in WWII than in WWI for several reasons, but one of the biggest was the fact that they kept blowing up there own ships and waters often became unnavigable. My strategy tries to simulate this. Given the way WitP is coded (ships rarely are hit by their own mines) so using thousands of mines at a major port is EXTREMELY gamey.

[Mike Solli]

Yeah, I was joking. But, I often will plant 12-1500 in a base that I deem particularly important. Most of my mining is using my minelaying subs to harass the nasty Capitalists. They carry some 100 mines. Most of my minelayers spend most of their time in port. I send them out periodically to replenish mines in the ports I want to defend. I think Japanese MLs are rather vulnerable so they don't go too close to the front.

[niceguy2005]

It would be interesting to see some historical numbers for mines. I'm curious how many were typically used around a port.

I rarely play as the Japanese although I am starting a game against the AI. It seems to me that the Japanese have a lot of MLs and that they make decent gunboats and escorts for supply TF.

[Mike Solli]

Yeah, some (a few) have decent AA and a couple carry depth charges. I rarely use them in that capacity, simply because they're so fragile. Also, many have really short legs.

[niceguy2005]

Do 75mm Field Guns work the same way as CD guns against ships?

Search the threads for this one. Someone asked this question a couple months back.

DOn't quote me, but I think the answer is this: NO

There seem to be 3 types of guns.
1. CD - Fire mostly at ships, don't know that they work otherwise
2. DP (dual purpose) These can be used on either ships or INF
3. Field Guns, mortars, howitzers. They are anti-personnel only. They won't hit ships, but they can blast the heck out of a beach landing.

In the defense of Canton, I had a Field Artillery unit, a USMC defence batalion and a large base force stop an moderate sized invasion dead in its tracks. THey blasted them to pieces on the beaches.

[Mike Solli]

I remember reading in a thread (don't ask me which one) that some people use US 155 mm howitzers as CD guns. They may have been in a CD unit but I seem to think they were in infantry divisions.

[AmiralLaurent]

AFAIK, only guns of the CD type will open fire on bombardment or MSW TFs in the same hex.
But if a transport TF is landing troops, all available guns will fire on the troops and ships and may hit both.

[String]

With 6-7k mines one can really really wreak havoc amongst the invasion forces.

[Feinder]

The name of the gun can be misleading.

The TYPE of gun (in the DB, not the unit it), must be of either type "Naval Gun" or "DP". The 155mm Field gun has a type of "Naval Gun". However, the 75mm Field gun is of type "Army Gun". The 75mm Field gun will not fire at ships, however it will fire at the men as they unload.

The 155mm Field Gun (as a anti-ship gun) is quite accurate, I assure you. My grandfather was assigned to a 155mm battery of the 4th USMC Def Btn that landed at Guadalcanal, and yes, their guns were quite capable of blowing the snot out of the many DDs that ran by.

Frankly, I don't think that the "army guns" should be excluded from firing at ships. They have range/accuracy/penetraion/effect ratings after all. And I'm sure there were plenty of guys that fired 75mm howitzers (also type "army guns" at enemy vessels). However, from my testing, "army guns" will not fire at enemy ships (again, they do get a round of bombardment as artillery vs. the landing troops tho).

So folks have said that thier 75mm field guns will fire at ships. I do not discount this. It is possible that I simply got different resutls. But basically what I did to test was to create a battery of 100x of the same gun (multiple tests with different guns of differnt types), and send in a bunch of ships to bombard and another TF to invade. My testing showed army guns did not fire vs. the ships. But who knows.

-F-

[Drex]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

It would be interesting to see some historical numbers for mines. I'm curious how many were typically used around a port.

I rarely play as the Japanese although I am starting a game against the AI. It seems to me that the Japanese have a lot of MLs and that they make decent gunboats and escorts for supply TF.

Morrison reports in his Naval Operations history that two MLs laid over a 1000 mines in one evening. Large mine fields are not gamey.