DDs finding and destroying mines?

[barnacle bob]

Just curious. [&:]What is the justification for this? I read every thing I can about the Pacific Theatre. I don’t recall reading anything about this (I may have and it did not sink in). I know the US used IJN DDs, after the war, to clear mines….the old fashion way by hitting them.[&:]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: barnacle bob

Just curious. [&:]What is the justification for this? I read every thing I can about the Pacific Theatre. I don’t recall reading anything about this (I may have and it did not sink in). I know the US used IJN DDs, after the war, to clear mines….the old fashion way by hitting them.[&:]

Ships (esp smaller, maneuverable warships) would post double lookouts and spot the mines by advancing (slowly) into minefields. The spotted mines would then be shot with MG and small cannons (i.e. 20 mm.) or even rifle fire. Even subs could do this.

[barnacle bob]

Thanks.

OK. That is what I thought. I just never saw it in writing.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: barnacle bob

Thanks.

OK. That is what I thought. I just never saw it in writing.

I've read different accounts of it. Not a really good idea to send a non-minesweeper into a minefield, but it happens sometimes (usually inadvertantly).

[Nikademus]

definately not a good idea....i've lost more than one that way......always send expendible PC's or MSW's if you have em

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

definately not a good idea....i've lost more than one that way......always send expendible PC's or MSW's if you have em

like this guy...

[Terminus]

The lesson: no matter how much you hate your job, somebody always has it worse...

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: barnacle bob

Just curious. [&:]What is the justification for this? I read every thing I can about the Pacific Theatre. I don’t recall reading anything about this (I may have and it did not sink in). I know the US used IJN DDs, after the war, to clear mines….the old fashion way by hitting them.[&:]

Ships (esp smaller, maneuverable warships) would post double lookouts and spot the mines by advancing (slowly) into minefields. The spotted mines would then be shot with MG and small cannons (i.e. 20 mm.) or even rifle fire. Even subs could do this.

Which works alright with "floating" mines, but the great majority are moored and held several feet (10-30) "below" the surface---not something "lookouts" are likely to spot. And of course, in the game, DD's perform this task at ANY speed, not the 2 or 3 knots you are speeking of. Except for specific "DMS" ships, the whole "sweeping with DD's" is another piece of designer non-sense.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: barnacle bob

Just curious. [&:]What is the justification for this? I read every thing I can about the Pacific Theatre. I don’t recall reading anything about this (I may have and it did not sink in). I know the US used IJN DDs, after the war, to clear mines….the old fashion way by hitting them.[&:]

Ships (esp smaller, maneuverable warships) would post double lookouts and spot the mines by advancing (slowly) into minefields. The spotted mines would then be shot with MG and small cannons (i.e. 20 mm.) or even rifle fire. Even subs could do this.

Which works alright with "floating" mines, but the great majority are moored and held several feet (10-30) "below" the surface---not something "lookouts" are likely to spot. And of course, in the game, DD's perform this task at ANY speed, not the 2 or 3 knots you are speeking of. Except for specific "DMS" ships, the whole "sweeping with DD's" is another piece of designer non-sense.

Floating mines generally weren't used - they were generally mines that broke free of mooring lines. The way it worked IRL : most of the mines were contact mines moored on cables (not going to discuss influence mines, electronically activated mines that are a different kettle of fish). Tides would effect the depth of the moored mines, so if you had a fairly significant tide (8-10 feet) you wanted to set your mines so that they would be somewhere just deep enough to be covered a few feet of water at low tide. That way you could be sure to hit ships at either low or high tide.

If the mines are 30' down, not much is going to be able to contact them. DD's and shallow draft ships aren't going to have to worry about them. The DDs can still assist the MSWs by shooting up the mines when the paravanes from the minesweepers cut the cables of the deeper mines. A lot of ships would also carry paravanes - someone pointed out some of the IJN CVs carried them (although i wouldn't want to put them on minesweeper duty).

If mines are set a shallower depths (as they usually were), then they would be fairly close to the surface at low tide - then they could be spotted and shot. We might assume that the e-commander of the MSW TF knows to do the job at the right time.

[Oleg Mastruko]

Does anyone remember how we got this rule?

It was back in UV days that IJN had only 13 MSWs in the whole game. I won one game as USN by concentrating on IJN MSWs. Killed 12 of them early on and mined everything. It seems like dirty and gamey play (which it was) but I always pay attention to mine warfare, I always kill MSWs and MLs when I can and I didn't do it on purpose (ie I would sink MSWs anyway, even if he had 60 of them). I think then it dawned to both me any my opponent how little MSWs Japanese have.

Some players complained about this so the "emergency minesweep" rule was intruduced, where DDs, PGs and PCs can sweep a mine or two - and *more importantly* - detect a minefield (minefield, once detected, is much less efficient in damaging ships).

I think it works fine - but if you don't bring a dedicated MSW or ten, don't invade my islands hoping DDs will do [;)]

O.

[rtrapasso]

Well, i've always found that DDs in minesweeper mode were prone to be sunk...

[barnacle bob]

but if you don't bring a dedicated MSW or ten, don't invade my islands hoping DDs will do

I mine every thing I can! I love mines!

[bilbow]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Does anyone remember how we got this rule?

It was back in UV days that IJN had only 13 MSWs in the whole game. I won one game as USN by concentrating on IJN MSWs. Killed 12 of them early on and mined everything. It seems like dirty and gamey play (which it was) but I always pay attention to mine warfare, I always kill MSWs and MLs when I can and I didn't do it on purpose (ie I would sink MSWs anyway, even if he had 60 of them). I think then it dawned to both me any my opponent how little MSWs Japanese have.

Some players complained about this so the "emergency minesweep" rule was intruduced, where DDs, PGs and PCs can sweep a mine or two - and *more importantly* - detect a minefield (minefield, once detected, is much less efficient in damaging ships).

I think it works fine - but if you don't bring a dedicated MSW or ten, don't invade my islands hoping DDs will do [;)]

O.

I only need 10? Great! You must have really slowed down your mining ops! [:D]

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: bilbow
I only need 10? Great! You must have really slowed down your mining ops! [:D]

In fact yes I did slow them down somewhat in our game - seeing how minefields deteriorate in WITP, and that I risk valuable MLs to lay mines that will "evaporate". But you never know which places are well mined and which are not [;)]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: barnacle bob

Thanks.

OK. That is what I thought. I just never saw it in writing.

Many also had paravanes to cutmine cables.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: barnacle bob

Thanks.

OK. That is what I thought. I just never saw it in writing.

Many also had paravanes to cutmine cables.

All the Soviet ships in the standard game have these guys to counter mines:

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

definately not a good idea....i've lost more than one that way......always send expendible PC's or MSW's if you have em

like this guy...

I'm pretty good at Minesweeper...but i don't think i want to play that version....[X(]

[el cid again]

Does anyone remember how we got this rule?

It was back in UV days that IJN had only 13 MSWs in the whole game. I won one game as USN by concentrating on IJN MSWs. Killed 12 of them early on and mined everything. It seems like dirty and gamey play (which it was) but I always pay attention to mine warfare, I always kill MSWs and MLs when I can and I didn't do it on purpose (ie I would sink MSWs anyway, even if he had 60 of them). I think then it dawned to both me any my opponent how little MSWs Japanese have.

This story is quite true ! Including the part about how Oleg sinks Minesweepers. And so is the story about the 'fix' - which is utter nonsense.

The technology involved is paravanes. These are floats with wires attached strung from the bow - the mine cables catch the wires and that forces them up where riflemen can shoot them. Tricky, dangerous work, it was even done by my 16,000 ton APA (USS Francis Marion, APA-249, the last ever built). The problem is that UV/WITP allow this at high speed!!! That is impossible. Also it is much more likely to get your ship holed by a mine than using minesweepers is. Matrix is very anti-mine warfare - and said so on the UB board. They called realistic proposals a desire to play "mines in the Pacific." They deliberately ignore air laid mines. They fear (correctly) that Oleg (or any mine oriented player) would have a great advantage. Because the few naval officers that are DO have a great advantage. USN was defeated by mines as late as 1991 - if you believe USN reviews of the subject. Because we have not successfully kept up with mine technology - and because our major attempts are technical failures (see why we stopped building our last class of minehunters, or look up minesweeping sleds). Mine warfare is limited mainly because users don't use it. Defended minefields are very effective. See the fate of the Soviet Baltic Fleet at the hands of tiny Finland in WWII. [The greatest single victory for mine warfare in history was a battle over the Finnish minefields.] For a great US mine victory, see the WWI "mine barrage" in the North Sea - probably the greatest minefield ever laid.

[rtrapasso]

They deliberately ignore air laid mines.

??? [&:]

WITP has air-laid mines, and many players use them. You have to get to a certain date, however.

As for the SPEED of MSWs when conducting operations - the speed of the unit to and from the hex is specified. it is kind of vague how fast units are actually moving when conducting minesweeping ops, however, there probably should be some sort of ops points assessed for minesweeping operations, i think. But lots of stuff doesn't get assessed OPS Points that should in the game - heck, some of the time i notice that ships loading troops aren't assessed OPS points.

[rtrapasso]

The technology involved is paravanes. These are floats with wires attached strung from the bow - the mine cables catch the wires and that forces them up where riflemen can shoot them.

interesting - i had always read that the cables were cut. This makes more sense!!!