v1.2.18 Beta Now Available

[canuck64]

Fair enough, but is there any "qualitative" modifier for merchants? Put it this way-arguably at this stage, all merchants are alike-but really, Britain dominated mercantile revenues.

Would it not make sense to have a merchant fleet benefit (since they have a morale as well) from having been built in a port with dock size 8, or 9? I understand the design philosophy from what you said, but as it currently sits, Britain's merchants are the same as Tunisia's. This was hardly the case in real life as it still isn't. This would give some point to the process that's competetive, (in fact competetion doesn't ALWAYS mean poorer revenues-at least not to the semblance that it does now)
Ultimately, it makes building them almost pointless....no? -WITHOUT going to war. This might deepen a tad the naval model, force us to protect merchants, and compel us AWAY from always generating revenue on land (and using money towards other things than building land troops.)

Would this not be an easy change to implement? I'm arguing for a morale modifier to merchants. That way I derive some monetary benefit that I CAN RECOUP from having built up my docks to +9...

Arguments against or for would be appreciated.

[canuck64]

One last thing-some favoritism towards MY merchants should exist from my own ports, no? I should get a few pennies more than competing Swiss merchant marine (despite their glorious history)

[:D]

[JavaJoe]

Still getting the same problem on loading the system crashes on the "y" in copywrite.

[ericbabe]

ORIGINAL: JavaJoe

Still getting the same problem on loading the system crashes on the "y" in copywrite.

Have you tried updating your sound-drivers? The one time I've been able to duplicate the crash you described was on a machine with out of date sound drivers. (Note that Windows didn't think the sound drivers were out of date, which made detecting the problem rather difficult.)

[ericbabe]

Giving a qualitative bonus to merchants based on their morale level is a good idea, though I'd like to find a simple way to do it without making the merchant formula even more complicated.

[Russian Guard]

In my opinion this shouldn't be changed, regardless of historical realities.

The British already have a tremendous advantage at sea.

I feel that the whole issue of merchant ship placement/income should be left to the realm of diplomacy between players. If I'm playing England, I will tell even my Allies where they can and cannot place their merchant vessels - or rather, that they cannot place merchants where mine operate. If they refuse to observe this Merchant hegemony, they will face a lack of British interest in their land campaigns, and no loans, or even war. The other naval powers can offer varying options that favor the British elsewhere, in exchange for more favorable Merchant income.

The point being; Britain can dominate the seas through diplomacy or war, and other nations can negotiate more favorable access to Merchant income. If the rules make Britian dominant on this issue by default, then we have less diplomacy.

Solo games are a bit more problematic; you can't negotiate Merchant activity, per se. It takes some finesse but again can be managed (for example, I allowed the French fleet to sail into the North Sea to attack a Swedish Merchant fleet there, since I could not attack that fleet due to our mutual war with the French - talk about Machiavellian [:D] )

[canuck64]

So,

In other words, Russian Guard, what I'm pining for wouldn't impact you or your MP games, which is good to hear-at least not with respect to your relations with the other major powers, which you say you back off as part of diplomacy from your mercantile interests. minors are another matter, but it intrudes on you as well....no control over them diplomatically....
But you're right-solo play primarily makes little sense as it currently stands with merchants....
Keeping that in mind-, were some nation hard up for cash in MP, or in solo, and wanted to challenge England with some sort of subtle economic warfare, there should be some means available... but not an elimination of returns altogether.
As it stands now it makes it impossible for other nations to even invest in competing...or hardly worthwhile.


In short, building a competetive mercantile marine seems like sound economics to me-period wise particularly-but the game in its present state does not really reward this at all. There should be some sort of return for this investment in docks, and ships, in further merchant competetion-not merely less and less money available to be earned....no? Doesn't make sense.
1 merchant in Eng Channel earns 100. 2 each earn 20?
I confess it eludes me why if the game engine considers 100 the return on mercantile activity (a monopoly), for ONE merchant, and you have 2 in there, then the return is 20. Even if 50 each, the monopoly is already broken significantly. Add more, and more merchants, and eventually you have nothing to earn. But no qualifiers, no ability to keep this from happening exists. A merchant is(at present) like any other merchant. That shouldn't be if I'm from england and can guarantee you trade even in the event of war, as I have the British navy behind me.

If this makes things too uneven, add some sort of upkeep cost on navies (another thing I'm in favor of). They were HUGELY expensive entities to maintain, and the game doesn't refect that too much right now. I guess my argument's locus is that if you deepen the naval game, and show a sensible (manipulable) return on investment, then the land armies won't be quite so ahistorically huge, and maybe deepen the economic model a bit. As it stands, merchants don't make money all too easily, and there's no pricing raise or decline on commodities. It detracts from a great game that there's no presence of competetion in economics at all I think.

[Russian Guard]

Well I think there's two issues here.

I certainly wasn't disputing the historical realty of your original point. I'm just concerned that providing England with yet another advantage at sea is potentially unbalancing and mimimizes the need for diplomacy and, conversely, potential conflict.

Perhaps I'm not understanding your point; it seems to me that you wanted Brit Merchant ships to produce more income based on National qualitative advantages, than their opponents?

I think the example you state creates conflict, which can be a good thing. If the British (or whomever was there first) merchant vessel is knocking back 100 gold a month and then another merchant vessel enters the area and they BOTH drop to 20, there's conflict, or at least a good reason for one, because they both suffer equally for the other's presence.

I _do_ like your idea of increased income from ports with advanced docks. That's a way that a Nation can increase its naval infrastructure in an abstract way and improve on the performance of its merchant fleets.

Shoot gotta go but don't want to not post at least this much - more later.

[canuck64]

Russian-in a word, yes-but

I wanted the individual merchant's morale-dependant on the location and dock size that it was built with-similar to infantry, say-to influence income in a location. I also wanted that if I have 2 merchants to your 1, and all at similar morale, that I should make 66.6 percent more than you of the total up for grabs.

This way, I can compete if I choose as Austria-either upgrade my docks so I produce 'superior' merchants to compete with England's, or produce 5 lesser-quality merchants to achieve the same goal.

Bear in mind my ARMY can protect Trieste to an extent. But spending all those resources on a vast but lousy merchant fleet, well-suffice to say Austria would be challenged to protect it.

I also emailed Eric to ask about possibly implementing SOME maintenance cost on ships in general-the heavier the ship, the more it should cost. It wasn't cheap to keep a navy, and if we deepen the naval model a hair or two, it will compel us to engage. Right now, everyone more or less assumes Britain to rule the roost and I think generally ignores the challenge on any level. I think more civilized competition is healthy, would make having a navy purposeful. Otherwise we leave England to rule the sea, and I see no point to building merchants in general. Return right now is too poor. So why upgrade docks? To build 5 ships that can't compete with England (fighting ships)?

I just find there's too many shared bodies of water for what you say occurs in your MP games to make sense to me. Adriatic, English Channel, just about ALL of the Mediterranean.

Not only that, but why is there EVER NO income (try east coast of france, or the eastern med at the start from locations with banks AND docks. Nope, something about the current structure escapes me entirely-just looking for some "naval" stimulus for the more land-oriented nations.

[Khornish]

Eric,

I am unable to declare war on Prussia, as Austria, in my game at all. Early on in the game I had an alliance with Prussia, they later cancelled it.

Now, a few years after the cancelled alliance, I notice that I cannot declare war on prussia.

There are no outstanding treaties that would prevent me from DOW.

My attitiude towards Prussia is the greenish face, so this _may_ have something to do with it, I don't know.

Additionally, the AI is definately getting away with not paying up properly on load treaties. I'd mentioned this before in the MP game, but it's definately happening in SP games.

Currently the AI is paying less than it should to repay a loan, but there's no penalty hit to glory during the month or at the conclusion of the treaty.

[Latour_Maubourg]

Same here but then with Spain. I had once an alliance with them as France, then a crossing treaty. But lately nothing. they used to move troops through my provinces which I didn't like. I declared war, nothing. I tried to annoy them with a "coup" thingie with a diplomat. Nothing. After that I violated their territory. Their attitude is red. So it shouldn't be a problem to declare war on them but still nada.

L-M

[Khornish]

Yeah, I get the ultimatum/declar war/ignore screen every turn, and no matter how many times I DOW it doesn't occur.

[ericbabe]

ORIGINAL: Khornish

Eric,

I am unable to declare war on Prussia, as Austria, in my game at all. Early on in the game I had an alliance with Prussia, they later cancelled it.

Now, a few years after the cancelled alliance, I notice that I cannot declare war on prussia.

There are no outstanding treaties that would prevent me from DOW.

My attitiude towards Prussia is the greenish face, so this _may_ have something to do with it, I don't know.

Do you have a common enemy? Nations with common enemies cannot DOW on each other.

(NB: there are several old threads in discussion of this.)

[Latour_Maubourg]

Ah I see. We got GB as a common enemy. But that shouldn't prevent me from attacking Spain, like Napoleon did in 1808?


L-M.

[Kevan]

To prevent 3-way battles in a single province, you're prevented from declaring war on your enemy's enemy. Unforunately, that does prevent the re-creation of some historical events and creates the opportunity for some "gamey" situations, such as being able to declare war on one nation just to make it impossible for another nation to declare war on you.

[Latour_Maubourg]

Understood, but I hoped that this was changed with the patches. It takes away some good gameplay.

L-M

[malthaussen]

I've often wondered how a three-way battle would work out in r/l. Seems to me, it would get kind of messy, but I think it would pan out about the way things ended up in the film The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. Two of the competitors would make a temporary alliance against the third. Implementing this in a computer game, especially single-player, would be something very amusing to attempt. But in multiplayer games, it ought to be workable... somehow.

-- Mal

[ericbabe]

We added the rule in response to beta tester requests for it. It is the sort of thing we might be able to make a player option.

[Falconius]

Where do I find the Beta for download?

[garoco]

During the day of today we probe the game tcpip:
some things to better are:
1.- the letters are very small please increase 2 times of tall (in the screen strategy map)
2.- continue the problem to build lancers from province screen
3.- Diplomats don´t work in way client
We don´t probe still the detail battle
and the report frigates vs privateers don´t display in the event report