Lunacy In The Pacific Mogami Vs. Tom Hunter

[Tom Hunter]

Jim,

I think your right, and if your opponent wants to play "lets optimize our airforce" you should play it too.

Convert and bomb the crap out of him.

As I play the game more and watch other experienced players one of the wierd things I notice is the very high level of activity in the CBI area Vs. the Pacific.

In the real war CBI was pretty quiet for most of 42 and 43 but in this game things are the other way round.

One question, how does a F4F4 do against a Tony? Would it make sense to send some Marines to India, mostly to enlarge the pilot pool?

[Speedysteve]

Hi Tom,

I too find a lot more of us campaign more pro-actively in CBI.

Regarding the Tojo vs F4F. I have recently seen combat between F4F's and Tojo's (not Tony's I know but still a contemporary aircraft).

I don't know thge experience levels of the Tojo's pilots but my F4F's were all the CV guys = average exp in high 70's. They did well. From memory losses were about 3 Tojo's vs every 1 F4F.

Steven

[fabertong]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Hi Tom,

I too find a lot more of us campaign more pro-actively in CBI.

Regarding the Tojo vs F4F. I have recently seen combat between F4F's and Tojo's (not Tony's I know but still a contemporary aircraft).

I don't know thge experience levels of the Tojo's pilots but my F4F's were all the CV guys = average exp in high 70's. They did well. From memory losses were about 3 Tojo's vs every 1 F4F.

Steven

I think Steven is refering to my Tojo's on Kiska....for the record...Exp. Levels low 60's

[Speedysteve]

That's right Faber. Losses were about 3:1 weren't they or was it 4:1?

[fabertong]

3-1 ......I think.

[ADavidB]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

I personally am a stickler for historical accuracy so I haven’t upgraded any 2E to 4E bombers at all. But given the utter disaster in Burma I just recently wrote my opponent and told him I think the ONLY allied option to combat the Japanese overproduction and mass Tony strategy is to use the uber 4E upgrade strategy.

The Reason I’m using Buffalo’s ADavidB is because he’s already slaughtered my Hurricanes and Spitfires. I’ve managed to rebuild some Hurricane groups but those are experience 50-60 and I didn’t want to base them forward till they get trained up.

But given the results I’m seeing no allied fighters have a prayer unless/until I can base 200+ Spitfires or P-38’s against his hordes of Tony’s. And that won’t be till at least mid to late 1943. PDU’s are a game breaker I think given Japan’s overproduction capabilities and all the allies can do is convert the 4E bombers. There is also no guarantee that that will work either, the Tony has a high gun factor and can shred bombers too.

Jim

That's why I'm a big fan of not engaging the Japanese air power in any serious manner until the Allied air forces have built up significantly. Once Mike improved the ability of the Japanese fighters to shoot down Allied bombers in v1.50 "Bombers Do in 42" was essentially over for the Allies.

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi

[Tom Hunter]

On the other hand as the proponent of bloody combat I find that my airforce does pretty well against Japan even early in the game.

But there are a few things you must do to make this happen.

You need enough air units and planes to have staying power because initial attrition is going to be kind of brutal.

You need to constantly work for local superiority and move your air units around a lot to get it.

You need to be very bloody minded at the start because you won't begin to win until combat as burned up the really hot pilots that Japanese have at the start of the war.

You need to make the logistical preperations. You have to have a big network of air bases so you can hop from place to place, rotate units in and out and rest and resupply them. If you don't have the bases ready you can't really do the fighting.

I can't tell if Jim has been doing this or not and there is no quesiton it would be harder to do it against 200 Tonys but it has worked for me. You milage may vary since much depends on your own actions and those of your opponent.

Finally I find my bombers still do pretty well in air to air but again I try hard to have more smaller air battles rather than a few big ones.

Upon reflection I think this is key, the air to air model is awful when large numbers of planes are used and it is much worse to be on the losing end of a large air battle than a small one.

So if your in the inferior position you want to try for more numerous smaller air battles. It wont' cure everything but it helps.

[witpqs]

Hi Tom,

PDU all depends upon how you use it. I like PDU because I can downgrade or change to contemporary available models when a/c pool gets low. I do not change 2E to 4E except historical upgrades.

I suppose it could be an equalizer if an IJ opponent went nuts with plane production as you say. It is pretty wierd that Japan can change many things Allies can't - even shipyards and the like.

I think abusing PDU is akin to sending unit fragments in submarines to capture everything. You can do it, but what a lousy (and unrealistic) game it makes.

[Tom Hunter]

In China not much happens, there are no Japanese air attacks at all which means my attempt to gain air parity seems to be working. This will help the Chinese supply situation quite a bit and also slow down Mogami's training program.


The Allied airstrike against Rangoon goes in and is successful. This raid:

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 18

Allied aircraft
CW-21B Demon x 22
CW-22 Falcon x 3
Beaufort I x 16
P-40B Tomahawk x 71
B-25C Mitchell x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 18 destroyed
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 5 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
CW-21B Demon: 2 destroyed
Beaufort I: 2 damaged
P-40B Tomahawk: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged
B-25C Mitchell: 4 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
65 casualties reported

Airbase hits 6
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 37

Clears the Japanese CAP from the base and here are the additional attacks that followed, planes only the damage to the Japanese was heavy but I don't think the individual reports really matter:

Allied aircraft
CW-21B Demon x 8
Wellington III x 54
A-20B Boston x 16
B-25C Mitchell x 29

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 9

Allied aircraft
LB-30 Liberator x 48
IL-4c x 16

In total 30 Japanese planes were destroyed on the ground mostly Zeros and another 18 in the air.

But at the other end of the front there was a total disaster for US Marine aviation.

KB came down to a position North of Luganville and set up a very strong LR CAP over Luganville.

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 87

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 32
SBD Dauntless x 16
Spitfire Vb x 16
Kittyhawk I x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 30 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 15 destroyed
Spitfire Vb: 16 destroyed
Kittyhawk I: 12 destroyed

In addition to killing this raid they also shot down 2 more waves of Wildcats bagging 72 Wildcats in total. At the end of the day the air to air score was 130 or so Allied shot down, about 50 Japanese planes destroyed.

The Allied CV fleet is leaving Brisbane and heading for a position West of Noumea.

The USS Hornet is not far from Efate on her way to Pearl, right now she is heading East at full speed but once clear of the danger area she will slow down and loop back towards Noumea passing South of Fiji. If Mogami hangs around and tries raiding I will probably try for a CV battle.

There are about 200 allied fighters at Noumea flying CAP and the Marine groups are rebuilding so Mogami does not have air superiority in near New Caledonia but he does have a much better situation with the Marines so badly smashed up. Chances are he will be cautious and leave after a successful raid but he may be thinking that the Allied CV fleet has already left the area heading for the West Coast to get the October refit.

The October refit adds a lot of AA so I would like to get it, but I did not feel safe leaving no CVs in the Pacific so I sent the Hornet out first planning to rotate my fleet through the refit over the next few months. Maybe this will create and opportunity for me.

Over near Brisbane the 6th Australian division's convoy has turned North heading for Thursday Island. When they arrive that will push the garrison to 2 divisions, a US RCT, a Marine CD unit and various BF and AA units. That is a stronger garrison than Port Moresby sitting behind a stronger fort. As time passes and the airbase and port expand (currently port 2 airbase 3) Thursday will go from a defensive position to an offensive platform for the recapture of New Guinea. With KB down South my chances of strengthening Thursday to the point where the Japanese cannot take it are pretty good and holding it will be a huge help when the Allies switch to the offensive in the area.

[Ron Saueracker]

Do you think the A2A model, specifically the way CAP is modelled and the current strike split before CAP resolution (as opposed to after CAP to alleviate the automatic uncoordination of strikes due to the game mechanics) is going to get another look by the devs. Clearly these are standout flaws which can't be left as is.

[Tom Hunter]

Hey Ron, just because something is stupid, broken or flawed does not mean it needs to be changed.

Look at leaders, mine are vanishing so fast I am going to run out of decent ship commanders. (thank god the Japanese are starting to defect to my side). I am already very low on CV commanders with decent air ratings.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

Hey Ron, just because something is stupid, broken or flawed does not mean it needs to be changed.

Look at leaders, mine are vanishing so fast I am going to run out of decent ship commanders. (thank god the Japanese are starting to defect to my side). I am already very low on CV commanders with decent air ratings.

As per The Thread - Matrix has instituted a radical new policy in an attempt to get rid of the "Leader Bug(s)" (from the initiative of Mr. Frog, er, i mean Frag:)

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

Hey Ron, just because something is stupid, broken or flawed does not mean it needs to be changed.

Look at leaders, mine are vanishing so fast I am going to run out of decent ship commanders. (thank god the Japanese are starting to defect to my side). I am already very low on CV commanders with decent air ratings.

[:D]

Hey Ron, just because something is stupid, broken or flawed does not mean it needs to be changed.

Well, regarding leaders, I thought about what you said about merchant leaders and decided to start switching them with "staff officers ??", but there are so few to choose from it might not be an option.

[Tom Hunter]

The carnage in the iar continues in the CBI Theater.

On the 16th the Japanese put LR CAP over Padag in Burma and get a winning round inspite of Hurricanes and Demons on Sweep and Escort missions. One of the lessons here is that Demons don't do so well against Tojo's.

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8
A6M3 Zero x 8
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 18
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 4

Allied aircraft
Mohawk IV x 26
CW-21B Demon x 17
Hurricane II x 51
CW-22 Falcon x 1
Wellington III x 35
Beaufort I x 19
B-25C Mitchell x 33

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged
A6M3 Zero: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 14 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Mohawk IV: 3 destroyed, 3 damaged
CW-21B Demon: 10 destroyed
Hurricane II: 17 destroyed, 17 damaged
Wellington III: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
Beaufort I: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
B-25C Mitchell: 1 destroyed, 9 damaged

Still the over all loss ratio was not that bad and the Allies even got a few Zeros. This does show the need for Spitfires in Mandalay, one group is coming back from China and two more squadrons are in Dacca converting from Hurricanes and Wirraways to Spits once they show up the Allies should start winning these battles outright.

The next day there were no Japanese fighters over Padang and the Japanese 116th division was bombed heavily. The British and Chinese are going to cross the river into the rail hex East of Padang in a day or two and we may see land combat in Burma soon, the ground attack bombing should disrupt the Japanese some, hopefully offsetting the disruption my units suffered from their two hex treck through the jungle.

In China on the 16th the Japanese bombed Kaigan and shut the airfield. All Allied fighters had been pulled back to Chengting after the big battles over Kaigan the week before. The Japanese figured this out and launched a massive raid on Chengting on the 17th.




One of the unfortunate (for Mogami this time) aspects of this game is that if you launch a big air attack you can end up taking very big losses:

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 53 destroyed
Ki-21 Sally: 22 destroyed, 25 damaged
Ki-48 Lily: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane II: 2 destroyed, 8 damaged
Spitfire Vb: 3 destroyed, 10 damaged
P-40B Tomahawk: 3 destroyed, 5 damaged

For those counting that is 9 to 1 in favor of the Allies. Many of the Allied planes were damaged and are now stuck on the ground so a Chinese I-16 group is moving in to help boost the CAP at the base.

In the SW and South Pacific there were airstrikes on Port Moresby and Luganville. I am flying more planes on Sweep in those mission so if Mogami sends in KB to interrupt he will take more casualties. I don't expect to win if he jumps one of the regular raids but I hope to kill some Zeros. Efate is now an L5 airbase so I am traing 2 engine bombers and fighters now.

On the West Coast the USS Washington arrived. She is heading for Pearl with a few DDs escorting she will join the North Carolina and refit there when October comes around. Pearl has 150 fighters flying CAP which I hope will be enough, when Hornet arrives I will add her Wildcats to the LBA which ought to improve things some as well.

[Tom Hunter]

Here is a look at the troops in Mandalay. They are starting to move South now and more are on the way overland from Akayb.

I want the big offensive to go off at the same time as the Americans start pushing in the South Pacific so these troops are going to advance slowly at first.

Not that anything happens fast in Burma anyway.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

You need to be very bloody minded at the start because you won't begin to win until combat as burned up the really hot pilots that Japanese have at the start of the war.

Absolutely. Forward over the bodies!

Attritional warfare is what Japan cannot accept.

[hawker]

Those Zeros you shot down is probably at level 60 exp.[;)]

[jrlans]

How much experience did you lose in the KB massacre? I would imagine with losses that high that most of your training went down the drain and your starting with prety fresh pilots

[Tom Hunter]

Hawker, it doesn't matter what XP they were, all that matters is that I shot them down and lived to tell the tale.

jrlans the XP loss was not as bad a I thought it would be groups that were at 65 are now at 60 or so. the Marine replacement pilots are in the 50s usually and the pilots that lived through the whole mess are in the 70s.

I am back to training attacks but now I fly 40-50 planes on sweep as well. Mogami would probably win if he tried it again but his loss rate would climb which is enough for me.

The Australians and some US Army P40s are doing the same kind of raids on Port Moresby but they have always had a strong sweep along. Some of them are getting into the high 60s now.

[hawker]

Hawker, it doesn't matter what XP they were, all that matters is that I shot them down and lived to tell the tale.

I didn't mean to questioning your success,destroying 50 zeros in one battle is great achievement.
Its rather easy to retrain zeros to 77-79 exp. unless you have some house rule not to attack empty bases.