surviving the heavies

[Nikademus]

Frag's idea is an interesting one though i'd rather it was a roll vs. a sustained rate else we get too many planes becoming unavailable. There are other ways to address things though without code changes which are unlikely at this point.

[Mr.Frag]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Frag's idea is an interesting one though i'd rather it was a roll vs. a sustained rate else we get too many planes becoming unavailable. There are other ways to address things though without code changes which are unlikely at this point.

Only way I see of dealing with it without a code change is for player agreed rule withdrawing units back to USA/Japan to be rebuilt (new pilots/new aircraft) ... ie: NEVER turn replacements on unless you are in home country. Same kind of deal with upgrades. You want 'em, ship the group home and bring it back once upgraded.

It will not reduce the number of aircraft, but it will limit the number at the front line.

[Bombur]

-Do you guys know if heavy bombers have a higher supply comsumption than two engined ones (which in turn need less supply than fighters and light bombers?)

[Mr.Frag]

-Do you guys know if heavy bombers have a higher supply comsumption than two engined ones (which in turn need less supply than fighters and light bombers?)

Yep, supply use is based on loadout ... heavies eat more supply.

[moses]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Frag's idea is an interesting one though i'd rather it was a roll vs. a sustained rate else we get too many planes becoming unavailable. There are other ways to address things though without code changes which are unlikely at this point.

What do mean "roll vs. a sustained rate"?? I'd assume this would be some kind of dice roll for each damaged aircraft.

Can you make the planes die faster in the editor?? Without losing the pilots?

Whats wrong with code changes??[:D] How long after publication was the last change made to WIR?? Bombing the Riech??? Aren't they still occasionally screwing around with these games even today.

Of course I would like to see the civil war and new Russia game someday.[:D][:D][:D]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag


Only way I see of dealing with it without a code change is for player agreed rule withdrawing units back to USA/Japan to be rebuilt (new pilots/new aircraft) ... ie: NEVER turn replacements on unless you are in home country. Same kind of deal with upgrades. You want 'em, ship the group home and bring it back once upgraded.

It will not reduce the number of aircraft, but it will limit the number at the front line.

That is true.....recently read about that very fact in Vol III of Bloody Shambles. The Japanese transfered all their Burma based Nate sqaudrons back to Japan in order to convert them to Ki-43 (and work them up)

In the game, its alot easier even with the delay imposed of repairing the entire group up to strength (which takes about a week)

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: moses



Can you make the planes die faster in the editor?? Without losing the pilots?

Not really...that was why op losses were toned down in the first place

Whats wrong with code changes??[:D]

your right! code changes are EASY! just ask Ron..... [;)] [:'(]

[moses]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Frag's idea is an interesting one though i'd rather it was a roll vs. a sustained rate else we get too many planes becoming unavailable. There are other ways to address things though without code changes which are unlikely at this point.

Only way I see of dealing with it without a code change is for player agreed rule withdrawing units back to USA/Japan to be rebuilt (new pilots/new aircraft) ... ie: NEVER turn replacements on unless you are in home country. Same kind of deal with upgrades. You want 'em, ship the group home and bring it back once upgraded.

It will not reduce the number of aircraft, but it will limit the number at the front line.

This would only really hurt the allies as it is often difficult to transfer planes to and from US/Austrailia. Wouldn't hurt japan much at all. All it would do it make the game a lot more work.

In the end you have the same problem. Way too many aircraft. No matter how you cut it giving the players way more than the historical number of aircraft is going to cause problems.

Think of it this way. What if the game gave Japan 20 extra carrier replacements in 1942. Now think of a rule to fix this.


or.........you could just remove the extra carriers.

[alfrake]

An update on the original question....

There were a couple pieces of actual advice in between the discussion of how the game is flawed. I put some Zeroes on CAP and put more Oscars up. I may get some Nates as well, but they are all in China or Japan itself so it takes a while. Bombing his airfields does not currently interest me as all my bombers are currently in use.



AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/05/42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 19
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 76

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 56
LB-30 Liberator x 32

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 5 destroyed, 20 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 10 destroyed, 36 damaged
LB-30 Liberator: 9 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Six days after the first big raid. My Zeroes got half the actual kills. Many of his bombers turned back as their friends got shot up, the 3 brave pilots that pressed on merely bombed the ocean (and 2 of them got hit by flak!).

My problem the first time may largely have been the initially decent morale of the bomber squadrons. Then they pressed on despite loses with no one turning back. Their edge has been blunted in that regard now.

[mickbeau1]

As the Allied I would gladly trade some 4E bombers for some 1E army fighters early in the war.

I was wondering how much does changing bombing altitudes affect accuracy? Perhaps a house rule limiting the minimum height the HB's can bomb at?

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: mickbeau1

As the Allied I would gladly trade some 4E bombers for some 1E army fighters early in the war.

I was wondering how much does changing bombing altitudes affect accuracy? Perhaps a house rule limiting the minimum height the HB's can bomb at?

This, of course, would impose a completely ahistorical rule on the game.

Historically, heavy bombers were used effectively in bombing shipping - but only at very low (about 100') altitude. B-24s operating from China badly hurt IJN shipping necessitating (in part) an offensive to deprive the B-24s of their bases. They also supposedly hit/sank numerous IJN warships. The B-24s used radar at night, and one bomber could bomb and hit multiple targets per night. Some of the individual claims are suspect, but there isn't much doubt they were hitting and sinking ships with minimal resources. Of course, this kind of radar-directed night-bombing is not represented in WITP (nor are many other technological advances).

Skip-bombing tactics were also first developed in B-17s. Masthead height attacks were carried out early in the war by other aircraft, but the bombs were dropped directly on targets, not skipped. Faster aircraft were used once the technique was shown to be feasible, and the B-17s were used for other more appropriate duties.

[Sneer]

in my game in 5/42 I'm much more concerned where are 4E bombers than allied carriers

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: mickbeau1

As the Allied I would gladly trade some 4E bombers for some 1E army fighters early in the war.
I was wondering how much does changing bombing altitudes affect accuracy? Perhaps a house rule limiting the minimum height the HB's can bomb at?

One of things that would help is that 4E bomber worth 2 points (there are many variations of that but you get the point)

[jolly_pillager]

Alfrake is correct...the heavy bomber groups are now heavily damaged and their morale is in the pits. I am unsure if the effects are worth the cost...especially considering that their alternate mission (transporting supply to Nanning) is much more pressing than killing 5 Oscars a turn (and much less dangerous).

I think the bomber offensive against Rangoon (a total of 1 small and 2 medium raids) is now suspended at least until Calcutta makes size 5 or until I can provide escorts.

Overall I will say that this offensive was less than successful...although it wasn't a disaster by any means (which makes it stand out compared to most allied attempts in early 42).

What this also shows is that you cannot rely on a single airbase...it is too easy to mass force against a single target...a dispersed group of bases with fighters on LRCAP is much more robust.

From the sustainablity perspective these sorts of raids are unsustainable at any sort of reasonable loss rate...morale plunges after every mission and the attrition is limiting the number of replacements in my pool...which is reducing my ability to base, for example, a Liberator squadron at Midway on long range patrol.

[Feinder]

Allied 4e bombers teach you what you -should- be doing anyway. Don't mass your planes, or you're going to get killed. Spread out your AF. Same for Allies vs. IJN BB runs. Spread out your AF. (of course, Ollie just threw that in my face, by bombarding my AF Camrah Bay, but I claim "coffee deprived" for that error in judment).

They -can- fly unescorted. But if you send -real- fighters vs. them, and in sufficient quantities, you can knock them down. Are you gonna lose planes and pilots? Yep. Lots even. But if he returns from a mission with 5 B-17s shot down, and 30 damaged, it's going to take about 10 days to repair those damaged aircraft, and "repair" the morale. If you can bomb the AF they're coming from, while all those damages are on the AF, so much the better. If you can't, you're going to have to LRCAP the AF that he's attacking, flying from other AFs. But that DOES work. 6 squadrons at four airfields is far better than 6 squadrons at one airfield. Six at one is just a begging target.

"I'm more afraid of allied 4e bombers in May '42, than USN CVs".

You should be.

Despite what folks believe, it's very hard to get unescorted Allied 4e bombers to launch vs. KB. The -can- launch, but that doesn't guarentee that they will (in fact, they likely won't). I'm not talking about 2 CVs. I'm talking about "real" KB, all 6 CVs. It's nearly impossible to make that roll to go unescortd vs. 120 fighters (unless you've got a LOT of bombers). Not impossible, but -very- unlikely. Against 2 CVs, not so hard. But against all 6, it's -very- hard.

Frankly, that's what you've got the "crappy" fighters like the P-39 and RDAF for. They suck on CAP, but they have the range to escort out to 5-8 hexes, all you're really looking for his head count (you need about 1 escort for every 3 on CAP to trigger a launch). Your escorts will get torn up, but at least the 4e bombers will launch (and they -will- get torn up vs. KB, but they'll do plenty in return).

-F-

[Sardaukar]

True that. Against AI almost all IJN CVs I've killed as Allies have been sunk by land-based bombers. B-17s etc. can be very effective when you can get them to launch..which can be pain in the butt.

[hawker]

True that. Against AI almost all IJN CVs I've killed as Allies have been sunk by land-based bombers. B-17s etc. can be very effective when you can get them to launch..which can be pain in the butt.

You sink those carriers becouse of stupid game engine when comes to 4E bombers. In RL you cant fine not ONE example of that.

[Feinder]

Please don't make a historical RL comparison regarding 4e bombers attacking Japanese CVs.

Then I'd have to question the lack of RL examples of Japanese amphibous invasions at India, Ceylon, Australia, Noumea, Suva, Pago-Pago, Palmyra, Johnston, and the Hawiian Islands.

You can't cry foul on one, and enjoy the other.

-F-

[hawker]

Please don't make a historical RL comparison regarding 4e bombers attacking Japanese CVs.

Then I'd have to question the lack of RL examples of Japanese amphibous invasions at India, Ceylon, Australia, Noumea, Suva, Pago-Pago, Palmyra, Johnston, and the Hawiian Islands.

You can't cry foul on one, and enjoy the other.

Invasions of Australia,India etc. is something that player decide and it is not failure of game engine.
4E bombers is the biggest mistake of WITP. Where in RL you can find that B-17 ever hit DD or similar class ship.That is almost impossible,to hit ship of that size which steams 30 knots. In WITP that is happen in regular basis(read:everyday)
4E IS NOT NAVAL ATTACK WEAPON,sure you know that but you hold your side as allied fan boy[;)]

[Feinder]

"Allied fan-boy".

I've been called worse.

I'm not going to get into the debate of "4e vs. shipping". The short is, there is mounds of historical data that support the fact that they were frequently used, and quite effect. Frankly, it's not worth my time to dredge it all up again for somebody new. That debate has gone on about 37 times in this form. Look up the facts before before making an assumption. It's not necessary for me to do your homework for you.

I'll be the first to admit that there are great inaccuracies in the 4e bomber model in WitP. But my point is that if you complain about the historical accuracy for the 4e model in WitP, you should check the historical (in)accuracy of Japanese production, supplies, japanese shipping, ground combat, ampibious invasions...

-F-