Difference between SP:W@W and SP:WW?

Toey · Post by **Toey** » Tue Jul 04, 2000 7:10 am

I guess scale would be one.

SP:WW2 used SP:2 engine.
SP:W@W used SP:3 engine.

Anything else?

This is not a flame, I just would like to know what's different.

Tankhead · Post by **Tankhead** » Tue Jul 04, 2000 8:01 am

Originally posted by Toey:
I guess scale would be one.

SP:WW2 used SP:2 engine.
SP:W@W used SP:3 engine.

Anything else?

This is not a flame, I just would like to know what's different.

Hi Toey! The scale is 50 yards across It use SPIII engine but the codes have beign rewrote plus it is windows native now no more Dos. The sounds well

graphic are awesome New terrain type plus much much more. The best thing to do dowload the manual and see for your self. Hope this helps.
http://www.matrixgames.com/spwaw/downloads.asp

Tankhead

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Rick Cloutier rcclout@telusplanet.net
Coordinator: Tankhead's SPWAW Resources
http:/sites.netscape.net/rcclout

[This message has been edited by Tankhead (edited 07-04-2000).]

Spunkgibbon · Post by **Spunkgibbon** » Tue Jul 04, 2000 8:12 am

Now that's a large question and I'm sure that by the time I get to post this reply about 8 people will have answered already.

The biggest difference is the armour system. Unlike SPWW2 (or any other SP game) SPWAW models a tanks armour thickness and slope directly (using incredibly hard maths that are utterly beyond me) instead of by abstract armour values. Likewise armour penetration is calculated using more hard maths to give the most accurate model of armour penetration of any wargame.
I lost faith in SPWW2 when I lost a Tiger to an American Greyhound. In SPWAW that is far, far less likely to happen.

Another difference between the two is that in SPWW2 the paratroopers you bought were strictly ground based. Not in SPWAW. Oh no. In SPWAW you can load them into planes during your deployment and have them dropped wherever you like (enemy AA notwithstanding). The same goes for your commandos/partisans/gurkhas/rangers/other national special forces units. During your deployment you can specify hexes for them to infiltrate to and a number of turns later they will appear there (or nearby, or not at all sometimes if the enemy turn out to be well vigilant) ready to wreak havoc behind enemy lines.

The maps are bigger in SPWAW.

The graphics are sexier.

The sounds will induce post-traumatic stress disorder if you play for too long.

SPWAW is infinitely more stable.

There are more terrain types in SPWAW such as stone walls, bocage type hedges, ordinary hedges, mud and railway lines (complete with a very good armoured train unit which I've not used yet). These terrain types are more than just cosmetic; they have a major impact on the battlefield.

There are loads more differences that I can't bring to mind right now but be assured that they are there.

Guderian · Post by **Guderian** » Tue Jul 04, 2000 12:02 pm

Originally posted by Spunkgibbon:
Now that's a large question and I'm sure that by the time I get to post this reply about 8 people will have answered already.

The biggest difference is the armour system. Unlike SPWW2 (or any other SP game) SPWAW models a tanks armour thickness and slope directly (using incredibly hard maths that are utterly beyond me) instead of by abstract armour values. Likewise armour penetration is calculated using more hard maths to give the most accurate model of armour penetration of any wargame.
I lost faith in SPWW2 when I lost a Tiger to an American Greyhound. In SPWAW that is far, far less likely to happen.

Another difference between the two is that in SPWW2 the paratroopers you bought were strictly ground based. Not in SPWAW. Oh no. In SPWAW you can load them into planes during your deployment and have them dropped wherever you like (enemy AA notwithstanding). The same goes for your commandos/partisans/gurkhas/rangers/other national special forces units. During your deployment you can specify hexes for them to infiltrate to and a number of turns later they will appear there (or nearby, or not at all sometimes if the enemy turn out to be well vigilant) ready to wreak havoc behind enemy lines.

The maps are bigger in SPWAW.

The graphics are sexier.

The sounds will induce post-traumatic stress disorder if you play for too long.

SPWAW is infinitely more stable.

There are more terrain types in SPWAW such as stone walls, bocage type hedges, ordinary hedges, mud and railway lines (complete with a very good armoured train unit which I've not used yet). These terrain types are more than just cosmetic; they have a major impact on the battlefield.

There are loads more differences that I can't bring to mind right now but be assured that they are there.

The most fundamental difference is SpWaW's detailed penetration system aginst Spww2's rock-hard (maybe even too hard) infantry. Also, OOB's are different (mainly Spww2's idea of one MG/Mortar unit= 2-3 tubes/barrels).

As it stands, SpWaW stands heads over Spww2. Newest version of Spww2 is schedlued for July 10. Features list available at http://www.scotiasoft.demon.co.uk/page7.html

As for Greyhound vs Tiger, i remember a TRUE story that happened during Ardennes campaign. During the initial attack, a German Tank Coy ambushed American Recon Unit. One of Stuarts began to shoot it's puny 37mm at menacing Panther. By a miracle, one shot hit a stone road UNDER the Panther, made a ricochet, hit the underbelly, penetrated it, and hit fuel/ammo store resulting in explosion that killed the crew. AFAIK SPww2 has some veeery slim chance (0.1 %) for that one-in-a-million shots (if you know ASL, it's something like it's Unlikley Kill.

So you must have been very lucky. Just like my SS squad that fired it's MP38 at Ba-64 and immobilised it.... LOL

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Tue Jul 04, 2000 12:09 pm

Originally posted by Guderian:
AFAIK SPww2 has some veeery slim chance (0.1 %) for that one-in-a-million shots (if you know ASL, it's something like it's Unlikley Kill.

You could consider SPWAW's unpenetrating turret ring hit kill a one in a million shot

Haven't fired a million times as yet I'd say but I've seen this turret ring hit only once in 40-50 games.

Voriax

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Tue Jul 04, 2000 5:21 pm

Theres also the fact that we have approximately 600 more vehicle icons than the SPWW2!! Not dissing them, just as the graphics guy, this was a major improvement!! It's nice to really see a Hungarian Zrinyi Assault gun, not a Stug, of which the two bear no resemblance at all, or the Finn Landswerk II SPAA or the Hungarian Nimrod, and the list goes on!! I downloaded SPWW2, as I really liked it before I joined this team, however, the first time I went to play as the Hungarians, I couldn't go on, just cant deal with the amount of units that have to share the same icon, they really need to expand that, otherwise they also have a great game, interesting to see the new features with their new patch. Although, as mentioned, our armor system is tops, just like going from the old Squad Leader with armor FACTORS, to ASL with the Centimeter armor thicknesses, you can't beat this feature AFAIC!!

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Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Toey · Post by **Toey** » Wed Jul 05, 2000 2:19 am

Thanks guys!

That was really infromative.

BTW - I'm still waiting to get the game!

Desert Fox · Post by **Desert Fox** » Wed Jul 05, 2000 5:13 am

Originally posted by Voriax:
You could consider SPWAW's unpenetrating turret ring hit kill a one in a million shot Haven't fired a million times as yet I'd say but I've seen this turret ring hit only once in 40-50 games.

Voriax

Heh. I saw the turret ring kill in the very first game of SPWAW I played. Haven't seen it since though. It sure amazed me that it happened at all. I don't remember what bought it, though I know it was one of my units. Not fun to see one in a million shots your first day on the job.

rexmonday · Post by **rexmonday** » Wed Jul 05, 2000 6:57 am

Just a note on the Greyhound vs. Tiger debate: I considered it quite an achievement when I managed to have the Tiger shot out from underneath me by a Stuart during the Wittman scenario.
That is what you get for overconfidence.
Yes, I did park the Tiger at range 0 in the same hex as the Stuart. Never again.
I accepted it as the gods punishing me for over-reaching pride.

Tankhead · Post by **Tankhead** » Wed Jul 05, 2000 7:14 am

Hey Rexmonday he must got you right up the tail pipe.

Tamkhead

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Rick Cloutier rcclout@telusplanet.net
Coordinator: Tankhead's SPWAW Resources
http://sites.netscape.net/rcclout

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Wed Jul 05, 2000 9:57 pm

Originally posted by Spunkgibbon:
...I lost faith in SPWW2 when I lost a Tiger to an American Greyhound. In SPWAW that is far, far less likely to happen. ...

But it did happen in real life. I read where a Greyhound was in the woods and a Tiger can past on a road. The Greyhound slipped out and raced up to the "Tiger's rear. The Tiger saw the Greyhound coming and began rotating its turret and slewing the tank around to acquire the Greyhound. The Greyhound won the race and put the Tiger out of action with one shot.

Granted I'd be skeptical if Greyhounds destroyed Tigers often but like a crew member assaulting an AFV and destroying it, it happens in real life (& they get medals for it) and in the game.

Tankhead · Post by **Tankhead** » Wed Jul 05, 2000 11:19 pm

I've read true stories where men performing heroic task againts tanks and most of them were hits right up the old tail pipe and ussally getting some kind of medals for their suicidal missions.

Tankhead

------------------
Rick Cloutier rcclout@telusplanet.net
Coordinator: Tankhead's SPWAW Resources
http://sites.netscape.net/rcclout

Galka · Post by **Galka** » Thu Jul 06, 2000 9:35 am

AFAIK SPww2 has some veeery slim chance (0.1 %) for that one-in-a-million shots (if you know ASL, it's something like it's Unlikley Kill.

****************************************

I had several experiences with 'lucky shots' recently which have made my opponent most unhappy and me scratching my head.

During opportunity fire, a US 57mm AT gun was able to take a Stug head on kill it, then traverse quickly 180 degrees and kill a MKIV with a side shot! Darn I think those guns should cost less and be less effective too. I remember the avalon hill games having penalties for changing field of fire during a turn, and doubt that you could fire at all using opportunity fire if the target was not in the field of fire.

would a German squad really just stand there as a .30cal mg obiliterates it in six bursts?

How did that russian sniper kill a MkIV when it stumbled across his position?

Can a Tiger be killed likewise by a forward observer?

I could write a book about the lucky shots, that is if I could stop playing the game long enough

Hope I'm not sounding critical as I really do appreciate the efforts of those who conspired to produce this great game.

Chris

Guderian · Post by **Guderian** » Thu Jul 06, 2000 11:41 am

Originally posted by Galka:
AFAIK SPww2 has some veeery slim chance (0.1 %) for that one-in-a-million shots (if you know ASL, it's something like it's Unlikley Kill.

****************************************

I had several experiences with 'lucky shots' recently which have made my opponent most unhappy and me scratching my head.

During opportunity fire, a US 57mm AT gun was able to take a Stug head on kill it, then traverse quickly 180 degrees and kill a MKIV with a side shot! Darn I think those guns should cost less and be less effective too. I remember the avalon hill games having penalties for changing field of fire during a turn, and doubt that you could fire at all using opportunity fire if the target was not in the field of fire.

would a German squad really just stand there as a .30cal mg obiliterates it in six bursts?

How did that russian sniper kill a MkIV when it stumbled across his position?

Can a Tiger be killed likewise by a forward observer?

I could write a book about the lucky shots, that is if I could stop playing the game long enough Hope I'm not sounding critical as I really do appreciate the efforts of those who conspired to produce this great game.

Chris

Well, if you make any percentage chance for such kill, you gotta live with heroic FO who just threw a grenade into open hatch

.

SpWaW has a similar "bug" - sometimes when you fire at a truck/APC you can knock it's turret off....

JJU57 · Post by **JJU57** » Thu Jul 06, 2000 8:15 pm

These are not 'lucky shots'. There is a major bug when a sniper FO or crew can close assult a tank and take it out. At least once every game this happens. It should be more like once every 100 games. Most crews and snipers and FO's would retreat if a tank got near, not attack it.

And the German infantry never retreat. Where was that posting that squads would take suppression and retreat more often instead of standing there and getting killed.

Nikademus · Post by **Nikademus** » Thu Jul 06, 2000 9:11 pm

I was wondering about that myself (the retreat issue) as it was specifically mentioned in the 2.3 version update.

So far i hav'nt noticed any change. Even the US, which is supposed to have a (higher retreat/higher rally) aspect as part of it's national characteristics still tends to stand still and be decimated.

Just last night i watched a full 12man US Army squad get dispersed (from 12 to 3 men) in one turn by an eager Japanese log bunker.

Hav'nt tried playing with the retreat/rout preference setting yet but after that incident its probably time to start!

Voriax · Post by **Voriax** » Thu Jul 06, 2000 9:15 pm

Originally posted by JJU57:

And the German infantry never retreat. Where was that posting that squads would take suppression and retreat more often instead of standing there and getting killed.

Come here and tell this to my Germans that were running like rabbits in the Stalingrad scenarios

More seriously they do seem to run very easily when they are under arty barrage, but when they are directly fired upon i believe the higher morale/experience ratings of Germans makes them succeed their rout checks easily thus staying in place and dying to the man.

Voriax

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Thu Jul 06, 2000 9:15 pm

An observation here in my playing Gerry campaign against the Poles in '39. The tanks are definitely taking suppression from small arms fire, but it doesn't seem it's half as bad as in some of the earlier SPs. I haven't had my infantry take many losses, but I have seen, sometimes, the Poles retreat after only a loss or two, but then again the unit was fairly highly suppressed by prior fire.

JJU57 · Post by **JJU57** » Fri Jul 07, 2000 8:57 pm

I have the answer to why the Germans don't retreat and die where they stand. The program has some code that represents Hitler and his standing orders to never retreat.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Fri Jul 07, 2000 9:01 pm

In other versions of SP, the retreat of troops came to be a problem. Scenarios were left hanging with routed and retreating troops.

It was decided to toughen that a bit. I like it better. Now you can have a real fight without having to chase folks that really no longer offer resistance.

WB

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games