Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0

[Speedysteve]

Go Bombur [:D]

[Bombur]

Time to make some analysis, to see what happened in the battle (I usually complain when I lose, but it seems reasonable to complain when I win too), so...

1-Total aircraft involved in attacks. I estimate Nik strenght in 108 F4F plus 144 SBD plus 56 TBD. So he had 200 bombers, however, he had more than 50 planes damaged in yesterday´s battle, it´s possible that not all of them attacked. Here are the number of Nik´s aircraft that attacked my carriers.
SBD: 37+27+35=97
TBD: 19+14+12=45
This data shows that only 70% of Nik´s dive bombers attacked, it´s likely that many were still grounded.
Now, how many bombers were able to launch their payload?

SBD: 22+25+35=82
TBD: 6+8+11=25

So, we have 107 planes releasing bombs (TBD attacked with bombs too) with only 5 hits, 4 in battleships, question is why????? Japanese AA wasn´t particularly effective. Japanese CAP decimated the enemy planes but this 107 planes actually survived the CAP, as we know that one TBD achieved a hit, we have a total hit rate of 5% or less, for SBD´s. I´m puzzled by this mediocre performance just as Iwas in my Coral Sea battle. Furthermore, hit rates didn´t increased in latter waves as they did in Coral Sea.

Now let us see what happened with Japan
-The Japanese went to the battle with 400 aircraft (5CV+2CVL in the same TF). Composition was close to 150 A6M2 plus 110 Val plus 140 Kate.
Planes attacking
Val:21+21+41+24=107
Kate:21+21+72+24=138
Total: 245 vs 143 for USN. Look to the fact that the numbers made a lot of difference here. The Japanese attack also arrived in 5 waves, the last unescorted, but at this point CAP wasn´t effective (only 1 F4F)
Notive that again I´m not counting the last wave of the day (the PM wave that crippled Yorktown, as my interest is mostly in AM attacks, because PM missions are dependent on early results)
Hits/releases
Val:(1/4)+ (7/19)+ (9/48)+ (1/24)=18/95 (18,9%)
Kate: (1/14)+ (5/20)+ (7/67)+ (2/24)=15/125 (12%)

-Results were much better since the first wave. Why the first waves weren´t so disrupted? It´s possible that Nik already had spent some AA anmo in his fight against Betties. The result seems to be easy to explain given the disproportion between number of aircraft and ships from both sides. My BB´s helped a lot too, but I still don´t understand why the USN bombers, particulalrly SBD´s had such a poor performance as compared with what they achieved at Coral Sea (???????)[&:]

[Speedysteve]

The Allied hit rate does seem very poor I agree Bombur.

Nik. Could you give us the rough morale fatigue value of your boys from memory?

[Nikademus]

Peliminary analysis indicates that i just got my ass kicked.

[X(]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

The Allied hit rate does seem very poor I agree Bombur.

Nik. Could you give us the rough morale fatigue value of your boys from memory?

don't believe the morale was badly affected. It takes alot to rattle the CV boys of both sides. There were however, alot of damaged bombers in the hangers being serviced. It could very well be that the fatigue/damage status impacted the bomber's preformance coupled with the extreme ranged attacks. About as bad a situation as a USN CV force could find itself even without being outnumbered two to one. Some bad luck too......my bombers hit Hiryu but it was a belt hit (hence a non damaging near miss) + as related some of my bombers went after the BB's instead of the CV's. Port Morosby fought a decent fight, bloodying the KB Zeros some but the A-20 bombermen were green as they come....didn't expect them to hit anything.

I should have retired at full speed.

[Nikademus]

I salvaged the older turn....yeah the situation was a bad one for the US, should have withdrawn at full speed (like the real guys would have done)

nearly 40% of my force was being serviced and fatigue was high (good number were at high teens to even 20+% fatigue. My force was tired.

[Ron Saueracker]

That was a pretty good example of a larger air battle. Looked better than stock for sure. What do you guys think about air dropped torpedo accuracy? I'm leaning towards a reduction in the accuracy of air dropped torps (device mod) as I'm finding hits seem excessive, especially vs smallerships like DDs.

[Nikademus]

TBD torpedo accuracy sucked.

[kkoovvoo]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

That was a pretty good example of a larger air battle. Looked better than stock for sure. What do you guys think about air dropped torpedo accuracy? I'm leaning towards a reduction in the accuracy of air dropped torps (device mod) as I'm finding hits seem excessive, especially vs smallerships like DDs.

I agree, but also effectivness of torpedoes against small ships should be increased - you can see DD surviving 2 fishes in the game.

[kkoovvoo]

ORIGINAL: Bombur

.... I still don´t understand why the USN bombers, particulalrly SBD´s had such a poor performance as compared with what they achieved at Coral Sea (???????)[&:]

My experience is that bombers less disrupted by CAP perform better when bombing ships.

Japan bombers had good escort, while US bombers escort was outnumubered 3:1 and bombers took heavy pounding.

Next waves of Japanaese bombers were attacking cripples, thats another reason why they had better hit ratio.

[Bombur]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
That was a pretty good example of a larger air battle. Looked better than stock for sure. What do you guys think about air dropped torpedo accuracy? I'm leaning towards a reduction in the accuracy of air dropped torps (device mod) as I'm finding hits seem excessive, especially vs smallerships like DDs.

-I don´t think that a 12% torpedo hit rate vs. CV is low. If we look at Midway and Santa Cruz, accuracy is close to 20-30% (any info on Coral Sea, Nik?). Maybe you could argue that MANY Vals and Kates are effectively releasing their bombs (many of them were historically shot down by AA fire before), however, it could have been the case with a massive air battle (but in our smaller battle I had the same impressions). The trouble I see with AA is that one that was pointed by Nik, warships spend their loads in the first waves and then bocome defenseless, that´s why I deliberately created a BIG CV TF, with 400 planes, the objective was to force my planes to attack in sucessive waves, it´s also possible that Nik´s AA loads already were depleted by occasion of this battle. My BB´s had zero (!!!!!) AA anmo in today´s battle.

My experience is that bombers less disrupted by CAP perform better when bombing ships.

-Right

Japan bombers had good escort, while US bombers escort was outnumubered 3:1 and bombers took heavy pounding.

On the other hand, USN bombers are tougher, most of them were able to release their payloads despite adverse conditions.

Next waves of Japanaese bombers were attacking cripples, thats another reason why they had better hit ratio.

-Really not, accuracy didn´t change too much in the last waves, it actually decreased from 2nd to 3rd and from 3rd to 4th wave

[Bombur]

-A combination of variables, coupled with incredible good luck, resulted in a "perfect storm" for the USN fleet. Gilli Gilli was retaken at a horrendous cost (1BB+2CV+260 aircraft). For Japan, this again changes the operational situation in South Pacific, as the loss of Zuikaku (oooopppppssss.....now it´s time to tell the truth) and the crippling of Shokaku had given a blow to both morale and offensive capabilities of Japanese forces. This battle shows how dangerous are offensive operations inside the range of LBA, particularly if too much time is lost in the disembark and amphibious assault. It´s unlikely that Japan will be able to win another battle like this one. Now, we have a solid superiority in carriers until the end of 1942. Question is, what to do with the current naval superiority? The realities of overextension must be considered. Japan has lack of aircraft, lack of pilots, lack of replacement ships, lack of land forces, lack of fuel and supplies. Furthermore, we learned that carriers are vulnerable and we are left with only 5 fleet carriers (Junyo and Hiyo are more light carriers) until Taiho is ready, so, what to do?
Time to reorganize the fleet for now. Destroyers are being sent to Tokyo to have their AA guns upgraded, new aircrews must arrive to replace the 100 CV pilots killed in the naval battle. A counteroffensive to restore the situation in New Guinea is being considered.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/04/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,30


Allied aircraft
LB-30 Liberator x 12


No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 12000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 11th Ind. Brigade, at 40,38


Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 27
IL-4c x 4


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
20 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x IL-4c bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 19th Mixed Brigade, at 40,38


Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 3
IL-4c x 3


No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x IL-4c bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 56,95


Allied aircraft
A-20B Boston x 3


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
DD Nagatsuki

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x A-20B Boston bombing at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Sag Sag at 57,88


Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk I x 7
A-20B Boston x 5
B-26B Marauder x 21


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
BB Yamashiro, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CL Kinu
CA Atago
CL Yura

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 7000 feet
3 x A-20B Boston bombing at 6000 feet
1 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 7000 feet
2 x A-20B Boston bombing at 6000 feet
4 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 7000 feet
4 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 7000 feet
4 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 7000 feet
4 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 7000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 40,52

Japanese Ships
PG Santos Maru
MSW Senyu Maru #2
MSW Seki Maru

Allied Ships
SS Saury

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/05/42


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,30

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
LB-30 Liberator x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 1 destroyed


Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 12000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 40,52

Japanese Ships
PG Santos Maru
MSW Senyu Maru #2
MSW Seki Maru

Allied Ships
SS Saury

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 19th Mixed Brigade, at 40,38


Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 28
IL-4c x 7


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
59 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x IL-4c bombing at 10000 feet
4 x IL-4c bombing at 10000 feet

[kkoovvoo]

ORIGINAL: Bombur

-Really not, accuracy didn´t change too much in the last waves, it actually decreased from 2nd to 3rd and from 3rd to 4th wave

The reason of lower accuracy in your stats probably was that the bombers tried to attack ships which already took enough damage to be sunk (although sinking is reported after air phases), thus the planes were *unable to reach target*, but in report it appears like *x kates/vals launching torpedoes or dropping bombs at x feets*.

[Nikademus]

historical Coral Sea wouldn't make much of a comparison as the circumstances of the battle were so different. Against a small under armed and protected target, the US VT's scored their only serious success of the 1942 period while the Japanese torpedo preformance was marred by near crippling losses the day prior to the main event (otherwise both Yorktown as well as Lexington might have been torpedoed)

In this battle.....just about everything that could go wrong for the US did. over a third of my planes were under repair, those servicable were crewed by tired men....the battle was fought at maximum USN range which added to the fatigue and stripped the torpedoes from the TBD's putting them in near useless level bomber mode (the only purpose they served was to take some of the heat off the SBD's) The SBD crews were also facing TF's that were much much better protected both in the air as well as on the surface. On defense, my VF's did about as well as could be asked of them and the augmented AA of my TF's in comparison to Coral Sea took their toll...but there were just too many planes. Its hard to beat 7 flattops with four tired, depleated CV's fighting at max range.

In the end though, luck aside, it was my fault. I had considered a full speed retreat but figured it was unnecessary given the proximity of Port Morosby combined with how far i felt the TF's would go. (1 hex too short as it turned out)

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Bombur

-, what to do?
Time to reorganize the fleet for now. Destroyers are being sent to Tokyo to have their AA guns upgraded, new aircrews must arrive to replace the 100 CV pilots killed in the naval battle. A counteroffensive to restore the situation in New Guinea is being considered.

We promise blood, sweat and tears to any future Japanese intrusions into the Oz sphere of influence!

[saj42]

That was a gripping CV vs CV battle - i'm going to love playing this Mod over the standard game - just waiting for an AB Map version

Thanks to Nik and Andrew[&o][&o]

[Bombur]

-Japanese intel confirmed the sinking of two more USN fleet carriers, bringing the total to 4. It´s unlikely that the USN will be able to attempt offensive actions until 1944. Japanese diplomats were sent to secret contacts with their American counterparts in order to reach a peaceful agreement. The Chinese offensive against Nanning goes on. The Chinese AF is attacking ground units in Nanning with Il-4 aircraft escorted by P-40´s from AVG. A few losses were registered in the last two days. The loss of 50 planes aboard Yorktown and Hornet brings the great total of US aircraft losses to 300, the full complement of 4 Carriers. Yamamoto again noticed that the British lost no fleet carriers and that those CV´s could be used to reinforce the enemy fleet in South Pacific.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/06/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 54,44

Japanese Ships
PG Eiko Maru

Allied Ships
SS Grenadier

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kohima , at 34,25

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 25
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 30
Ki-21 Sally x 25
Ki-48 Lily x 25
Ki-15 Babs x 4

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21 Sally: 2 damaged
Ki-48 Lily: 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Lysander I: 1 destroyed

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 12

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
15 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
6 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
6 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
4 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/07/42


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 11th Ind. Brigade, at 40,38


Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 29
IL-4c x 8


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
12 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x IL-4c bombing at 10000 feet
4 x IL-4c bombing at 10000 feet

[Nikademus]

The White House denied the loss of two more carriers today. No worries. We'll be in Tokyo soon

[:D]

[Bombur]

As the situation is SoPac is relatively stable, both sides escalate operations in China. The offensive on Nanning continues, while Japanese Sallys escorted by Zeroes attacked the AVG base. The enemy lost 6 P-40 against one Zero and one Sally.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/08/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,30


Allied aircraft
LB-30 Liberator x 9


No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 12000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kunming , at 39,33

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27
Ki-21 Sally x 43
Ki-15 Babs x 2

Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21 Sally: 15 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Tomahawk: 3 destroyed, 5 damaged


Allied ground losses:
10 casualties reported

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 16

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
20 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
7 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 11th Ind. Brigade, at 40,38


Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 24
IL-4c x 4


No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x IL-4c bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 19th Mixed Brigade, at 40,38


Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 3
IL-4c x 3


No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x IL-4c bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/09/42


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,30


Allied aircraft
LB-30 Liberator x 6


No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 12000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kunming , at 39,33

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27
Ki-21 Sally x 40
Ki-15 Babs x 3

Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-21 Sally: 1 destroyed, 8 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Tomahawk: 2 destroyed, 8 damaged


Allied ground losses:
11 casualties reported

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 10

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
12 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
2 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 11th Ind. Brigade, at 40,38


Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 18
IL-4c x 9


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
9 casualties reported

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x IL-4c bombing at 10000 feet

[Bombur]

No news for the last two days. Japanese planes attacked Kohima, but didn´t find nothing to be destroyed...


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/10/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 54,44

Japanese Ships
TK Kyuei Maru
MSW Chitose Maru

Allied Ships
SS Grenadier

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/11/42


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,30


Allied aircraft
LB-30 Liberator x 18


No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 12000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kohima , at 34,25

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 24
Ki-21 Sally x 21
Ki-48 Lily x 21
Ki-15 Babs x 3

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21 Sally: 3 damaged
Ki-48 Lily: 2 damaged
Ki-15 Babs: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb: 2 damaged

Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 9

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
15 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 11th Ind. Brigade, at 40,38


Allied aircraft
IL-4c x 9


No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x IL-4c bombing at 10000 feet