We're still alive!

[Marshall Ellis]

Hey guys:

Appreciate the support!

BTW: If you want to rough me up a bit, It'll be tough since I've never slept in the same place/cave since this project began for security reasons

Thank you

[McGuire]

ORIGINAL: TexHorns

I own EIA and about another 150 board wargames that I have played for about 25 years now.

WOW, that beats my experiences by far! I played like 2 or 3 dozens different wargames (not all board games). But the reason why I'm an EiA-fan is quiet simple! The game is simply broken down to the really important things. Means: No micro-management.

ORIGINAL: TexHorns
For the record I would much rather sit down at a table and play a board game vs a live opponent than sit in front of a computer screen and play an AI or an invisible opponent somewhere in cyber land.

Of course it's better to play in real life! But if that's not possible.....

ORIGINAL: TexHorns
Wait....I guess I am saying that right now COG is better because it exists and can actually be played by the general public.

Yeah right:
The folks are down on the floor and you still step on em! [:D]

ORIGINAL: TexHorns
In fact in my opinion Marshall is in a no win situation because of all the EIA "experts" all think they know the best way the computer game should be developed and Marshall will never be able to make that opinionated crowd happy.

Well, I don't think so! Although I never met him, I think the game will be the best he could make it! Maybe there will be some points I don't like. But hey! It'll be a great game anyways!

And by the way!
Just because I'm hungering to play EiA on my PC, doesn't mean I'm not playing anything else (including CoG)!
We all know:
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

[TexHorns]

I truly beleive Marshall is doing the best he can. I just wonder if the EIA fanatics are more a help or a hinderance. I too will buy CEIA when it comes out, but I've stopped pineing away for it. COG is more than enough game to keep me distracted for a long time.

As to Marshall never staying in one spot, that would be too funny if there wasn't a hint of truth to it. Not that he really is. But the way the fanatics go after him on this forumn about rules, features, must haves etc, because by gosh they have played EIA for 100 years and only they know what is the best way to do things the EIA way, blah, blah, blah...it's no wonder the guy keeps a low profile now. It is also the reason that I stopped visiting this forumn on a reguler basis and only check in monthly.

I hope all the best to marshall, I just feel for the guy. Seems he is in a no win situation. And for now I play COG almost exclusivley. And those of you who aren't playing it because it's not EIA...too bad, your missing a great game.

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: TexHorns
I truly beleive Marshall is doing the best he can. I just wonder if the EIA fanatics are more a help or a hinderance.

Good point. I think we are both.

As of PC games based on the above I dont think I can justify for myself and for my wife (she is doing all the financial stuff [:D]) purchasing two very similar games.

CoG
For me it's like Master of Orion II and 4X games upwards. It is fun to micromanage one or five planets, but is a pain in the a** to do it with 40! Since I have not seen any AI (for the time being) intelligent enough to manage anything except basic configuration of production or other facets of micromanagement, games which require lots of -sorry to say that- boring M M, fail to keep my interest for a long time.

I am a 'whatif' history fan, but I can live with armies retreating many provinces (say 200+ miles in one month) from a lost battle, if I dont have to watch the price of wool every 2 minutes. I accept that economical warfare is and was as much important as real military actions, but I am much more interested in milítary affairs than economical ones. I know that Nappy's demise was caused by as much of financial problmles as military one, but at the and it was the allied armies that drove him off Paris. Too much choice can be just as disturbing as too few (for me at least).

I can undesrtand your feelings when you dont understand what I dont understand, but since I have Battles of Napoleon and CoD2, I can spend my time till cEiA comes out.

Regards

[TexHorns]

Ursa,

Everybody has their favorite games. I see your point about purchasing two similar games. I'm not trying to force COG on anybody. MY only point is that for those people who are complaining about the wait, there is an alternative.

AS to your game related reasoning for not playing COG; I too dislike micro managment games, which is why I don't play RTS anymore. In my opinion COG is only a MM game if you choose to do so. I don't choose to do so. I "hire" a trade advisor and leave him alone to do his job. I set the initial development of each province and usually never adjust it unless I have a shortage. I spend 90% of my time fighting the campaigns. Others enjoy MMing every single detail of the economy every turn. Well COG allows them to do that. But the game system itself prevents total control because of how much goes on that you the player can't see or control. It is economic FOW. I like it that way. Napoleon and the other dictators could only control so much economically. Much was out of their control. That is why I set the economic parameters and then leave it alone. I have what ever resources I have and play the hand dealt me. That is just one guys opinion and preference for how to play.

Hope you get your CEiA soon.

[1LTRambo]

ORIGINAL: TexHorns

In my opinion COG is only a MM game if you choose to do so. Others enjoy MMing every single detail of the economy every turn. Well COG allows them to do that. But the game system itself prevents total control because of how much goes on that you the player can't see or control. It is economic FOW. I like it that way. Napoleon and the other dictators could only control so much economically.

Ursa MAior
I agree with TexHorns that you can really get into the weeds with CoG if you want. I do and enjoy manipulating my economy to get the maximum benifit. One thing you have to understand is that in order to conduct war, you have to have the materials to support your efforts. In EiA you have to pay attention to money and manpower. In CoG, you have more factors such as Iron for artillery, textiles for infantry, and wood for ships, etc. This gives the game a much more realistic feel. I let the trade advisor do his thing and only monkey with it when I need specific items to achieve specific goals.
Again, I was skeptical about getting this game at first, but now I highly recommend it. It is worth the 10,000 forints or 41.50 Euros to purchase this game. Trust me, you will be very pleased you did.

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: 1LTRambo
It is worth the 10,000 forints or 41.50 Euros to purchase this game.

Nice homework Rambo! [:D] Hopefully we will use Euro soon (earliest 2010).

If we talk about my doubts about CoG let me sum them up.

1. Sizes of armies
2. Need to research technologies (for me a bit too RTS) and ahistorical
3. MP issues

I know sooner or later MP will be fixed, but 1&2 are design features, such "mistakes" -from my point of view- that finally got me off from Uncommon Valor which was a dream game of mine (cEia is another one).

You know here in Europe (I dont know too much about US cars) you can have a Ford Focus for something like 25% less than a Mazda 3, not to mention Fords are always on stock, but you have to wait for Mazda. Both cars are basically the same (mechanically) and very similar in appereance. Still some people buy Ford, some Mazda. After a VERY VERY LONG consideration I've decided to purchase the Mazda. I can wait till it is delivered.

Uff The Big Bear has spoken

[1LTRambo]

Sorry, my enthusiasm spilled over. I'm Waiting and longing for CEiA as well.
I'm sorry to hear that you won't buy the Ford though.[:(] Ford just announced big layoffs and the closing of several manufacturing plants to include one in Wixom, Michigan.[X(] This is all in an effort to be more competitive. It's rather sad because big business usually cuts payroll first, which only hurts the economy in the long run.[:-]

[1LTRambo]

Boy did I get off subject on that one.[8|]

Just watched the news and that was on my mind.

[Ursa MAior]

Well everything has ups and downs, automotive industry also. I think the western culture (it is true for both USA and the EU) has come to a level of comfort, which hurts productivity.

But we are really off topic now.

[YohanTM2]

For me it's like Master of Orion II and 4X games upwards. It is fun to micromanage one or five planets, but is a pain in the a** to do it with 40!

You hit the nail right on the head! I have 2 buddies that will not play CoG for that reason and I must admit I do understand their point. I enjoy it and hope they can get the issues worked out.

[Ursa MAior]

The economic model has been driving me batty for the past couple of days, and has really ruined the game's enjoyment for me. IMO, they should scrap the system of trying to factor in diminishing returns and artificial resource ceilings in the name of "balance," and just let you produce and stockpile what you want. No other 4x type game that I play so harshly penalizes success as this one.

It is a not-so-random quote from the CoG forums.

Before we get into details

1. I dont want to get into a my daddy is stronger than yours bullying (CEiA vs CoG)
2. I mean no offense on anybody (developers, partiots etc.)

but

I think the CoG team has overreached themselves, they've tried to do something unseen before (and they managed to do it), but IMHO the result is not what they wanted. No wonder that there are discussions about incorporating many simplifications (e.ega EiA style super fast battle option among others). It is a very complex modell of something which resembles the 19th century, at least how the anglosaxons (UK and US) has seen and still see it (there is a distinctive difference how these countries and ROW approaches history).
Players have a feeling about historcal events (not always scientifically accurate), and they like to see events comparable or similar to them in the historical games they play. I believe CoG is an immensely fun game, but is not really representing 19th century.

CoG is a 4X game (juts like Master of Orion III) set in the 19th century instead of space, whith an approach to the whole issue like an american boardgame(boardgamegeek.com has more on US and European style boardgames). It simply offers too much freedom, compared to reality. It is a benefit in a fantasy (space, whatever) setting but a drawback in historical games. As I said before I am a history afficionado, and there were no such huge armies and such differences in the technical and other levels of development (at least none the states could overcome in 10-20 years).

IMHO most of the players (at least military history orientated ones) would like to face real choices of real decisionmakers. Hopefully cEiA will give us exactly that. Streamlined, pure strategy (and diplomacy) with a hint of economics (blockades, pirates and stuff).

Just my two cents.

[McGuire]

And your 2 Cents are worth a couple hundred Dollars!

That's exactly the point!
- I want diplomacy!
- I want general strategy!
- I want basic economics!

That's it!
And there shouldn't be any lesser incoe, just because a regional leader has a headache.

[Sonny]

ORIGINAL: JimMerson

Hey Boys...

I just realized Mashall Ellis is only three hours away from me. Just give me tha word and I can go rough him up a bit...[:'(]

Thanks for the good word Marshall.

Jim Merson

Hey, no roughing up the developer. Marshall is a nice guy.

[Ursa MAior]

Marshall if you read this, and if I understood correctly that the dev'ment is in its last stages, would you be so kind to post some new screenshots about battles or a diplomatic maybe a production screen?

Just to warm up our hearts a bit.

THX in advance.

[TexHorns]

Ursa,

First let me say that there is nothing "personal" here, so I take no offense from your rational discussion of the merits and weaknesses of COG. In fact I appreciate the discourse. Although I don't necessarily agree with all your points, you have readily explained why you choose to wait for cEIA and not play COG. I will grant you the point that some things are a-historical about the game. I guess that is the difference between those who love it and those who choose not to play. The few a-historical things do not outweigh the true enjoyment of playing the game. What I do like about it is I am given the opportunity to make the decisions of a Napoleonic era European dictator. I run my country and make decisions regarding, provincial develpoment, provincial production, unit production, military upgrades ( there were differences in the adaption of military tactics between the European countries; not every country used the square formation right off; the Prussian army was still organized along the lines of Fred the Great and had not been updated at the time of Prussia's early campaigns against Nap.), diplomatic strategy, and most importantly military strategical, operational and tactical decisions. As stated previously, I disagree with the MM arguement as you can scale that to your liking. So other than armies being too large, I don't see the a-historical arguement.

Also, I want a game that allows for a different outcome than what was historically achieved. If all that is going to happen is a regurgitation of history, what is the point of playing. I want the challenge of doing better than my historical figure did. As for quick battles. Why do you want to quickly resolve the battles using a matrix and chits? What is better than being able to go to a tactical board and resolve the battle with your units and leaders. I regularly play hour long tactical battles and love it. I only quick battle small potato battles.

I think the bottom line difference is not whether COG is historically accurate or has system probelms, etc. The bottom line is that there is a group of EIA lovers who only want to play EIA and nothing else. Therefore they are holding out for the magic bullet, namely cEIA. In my opinion, no offense meant, but some of you have blinders on and can only see EIA and nothing else can ever be good enough. I truly hope you all are not disappointed when and if cEIA comes out. I hope it will be everything you guys hope and dream it will be. In the mean time, myself and tons of other guys are going to be conquering Europe Napoleonic style playing COG.

Oh and as for the qoute from the forumn; yes many new players post similar messages, myself included initially. But with time the nuances of the game become more apparent. The game takes time to learn and is challenging. Another reason why it is fun. Most of the people who posted as quoted, stick around, learn the game and are glad they didn't give up so easily. But what a person likes or dislikes is unique to each individual, so no personal offense taken if you or others choose to pass on COG. I guess I just hate to see fellow gamers miss out on something I think is awesome. But I respect your decision.

Peace.

[ess1]

ORIGINAL: TexHorns

I truly beleive Marshall is doing the best he can. I just wonder if the EIA fanatics are more a help or a hinderance. I too will buy CEIA when it comes out, but I've stopped pineing away for it. COG is more than enough game to keep me distracted for a long time.

As to Marshall never staying in one spot, that would be too funny if there wasn't a hint of truth to it. Not that he really is. But the way the fanatics go after him on this forumn about rules, features, must haves etc, because by gosh they have played EIA for 100 years and only they know what is the best way to do things the EIA way, blah, blah, blah...it's no wonder the guy keeps a low profile now. It is also the reason that I stopped visiting this forumn on a reguler basis and only check in monthly.

I hope all the best to marshall, I just feel for the guy. Seems he is in a no win situation. And for now I play COG almost exclusivley. And those of you who aren't playing it because it's not EIA...too bad, your missing a great game.

I do not agree that COG is a great game. For me the poor pbem factor spoils it.

[Ursa MAior]

Thanks for your long answer Tex.
Well, I was and still am on the verge of purchasing CoG, but would like to see a final word on cEiA first (in the meantime MP/AI problems can be fixed). As I said before I see no problem with buying CoG, but only as plan B.

Of course I wont play a game which forces me to replay history and that only.

I'd like to play one which offers historical choices. Due to the 4x nature of CoG you can have turkish armies on par with french or british ones, which is ahistorical for a number of reasons. I cant say, since I dont know it yet, how cEiA will cope with it, I sincerely hope that it will keep the spirit of the boadgame.

As of deteiled battles I loved Master of Orion I+II, loved the detailed battles too, but after say 100+th action with each side sporting 2000+ ships it wasnt the same anymore. Not to mention the famous and decisive mistakes made by commanders dont occur if you are in charge of the last single regiment. I will probably buy Blackpowders BoN IMHO it will be more accurate.

While I wait I shoot up some russians an germans in CoD2, if I feel like Nappy I play the old BoN. Oddly enough its AI seemes to be a good one.

[JimMerson]

I agree with Tex as well. No I shall not "go after him" for several reasons, to include he is a fellow Texan, and to distract him would be to distract the game.

Keep up the great work and I will purchase a copy when the game is ready!!!

Jim Merson

[Grand_Armee]

Many of you dog COG...some of you who haven't even bought it! It's a tremendous game. What did your mothers tell you when Brussel Sprouts sat before your young face the very first time?

You whine about micromanaging 40 planets. You set a state once and leave it there...it's not rocket science. If you don't want to improve it, no big deal. Nothing is making you. That state certainly won't fall off the map.

You whine about the AI. Because it's a program, not a learning mind it'll never be what you want. Nor can you please 300 guys with 300 different opinions. Opinions are like rectums my friends...everyone has one and they all stink but your own.

You whine about MP issues. How can you do that when you haven't even purchased it? Have you tried TCP/IP? No, I didn't think so. I've played guys from the around the world and had a blast. I still do. Have you thought of (purchasing and) helping on the open development forum? What? No, again? Why am I not surprised?

You read a few posts, and you whine.

If COG had an economic model like good old EIA you'd probably play through the entire Napoleonic campaign in an afternoon as one nation. If army construction was the same, ditto...because in good old EIA there was nothing to improve. And you won't have to wait for your two potential enemies who are plotting against you in the hallway.

Now, you have a chance to improve (and change history) and you fall back on the old "ahistorical" mantra. OH, no...Turkey can improve?(clasp your hands to the sides of your faces)...Heaven Forbid!

What will you say when you capture Moscow at the head of the French army that has more than 1/3 of it's effectives still in the ranks once CEIA is released? "Oh, I shouldn't have been able to do that...time to put this game in the trash"(shake your head because you've wasted another tank of petrol).

There's room in this world...and in my wargaming world...for both games. Good old EIA was my first wargame to love. I expect my affair with COG to last a long time. She certainly won't be set aside even if CEIA is a complete and perfect replica of the cardboard classic.