Arty effectiveness?

[Alby]

other than splash damage, does anyone think the arty in 8.403 is any less effective?
got in big discussion with some who are saying arty is useless now
I dont see it. still seems lethal to me

[m10bob]

From "real life" experience:
Steel Panthers in any version has been weaker than circus lemonade.
(I always increase the factor to approx 130% against soft targets and at least 110% against hard targets to compensate.)
The current version has weakened the mortars (apparently) and the snipers are useless dolts all over again.
Real units continue to carry 60mm mortars because they work and are accurate, completely the opposite of the misrepresentation in SP).
Same with rifle grenades.
Nothing against SP..It's a game.
You may quote me.

[Alby]

My snipers seem more effective to me.
and mortars seem to work well for me
especially those designated as "dedicated fast response"
they are coded to be more accurate.

[Goblin]

Mortar accuracy in this game is bad. My friend Mike was an 81mm mortarman in the Army. He told me that the sights on the mortars he used in the 70's were almost unchanged from the WW2 81mm mortar. He stated that he would have been shot for an enemy spy if he had missed target hexes as often as the mortars in the game do. Being 100m off was a very bad shot to him, let alone 10 hexes with every other shot. He actually stopped playing the game because it drove him totally insane.


Goblin

[Alby]

the scatter effect used mortars/arty can only be changed in the mech.
I tried to make them more accurate but could not.
[:(]

[chief]

Alby: I played Vanishing Division with 8.403Mod and 8.4 Mod, (ur Mod) and in 8.403 I found the artilley lousy. I replayed it in 8.4Mod and the artillery was back to satisfactory conditions. All prefs were stock or programmer convention depending on mod. The results for game were identical a DRAW, but the score for live player was up there. Suppression worked as it should in your Mod. It seemed like the Germans had IR glasses in 8.403, the scene was night and they could spot everything. The unique thing was that by loading infantry on tanks I could go right up to a position, riders took a hit but tank was usually unharmed and could wipe out the infantry next shot.

[KG Erwin]

On the subject of mortar accuracy, at what ranges do you guys fire them? I limit the 60mm to no more than 6 hexes (300 yards), and the 81s to no more than 10-12 (500-600 yards). At these ranges, they are very effective.

[bud]

well lets look at the facts - after playing perhaps just 3 games in 8.403 i couldnt belive my eyes --- after hitting inf with off board 105`s they where untouch -- so next game i went with 122`s -- ( i might add that even in 8.4 there was ALWAYS SOME DAMAGE to inf and even other units from o/b 105`s and 122`s ) and again no damage at all -- no pin -- notting -- so 3rd game i went with 155`s -- well you know the rest -- untouch again --- now i know there was some splash adjustments made -( i think that was for more direct fire weapons then for artillery -- too bad -- now most of the direct fire units are useless- the bigger stuff l150`s on up -- smaller ones - 81`s - still good for some soft targets and smoke -) - but this is out of hand -- i never had to adjust artillery up on soft and hard targets before - and i think thats about 10 years for this game too --- i still feel like a deer in the h/lites --- after hitting the same 3 to 4 hexs with 155`s for 4 turns then attacking they where there not even pinned --- so thats the deal -- and it may be noted that this is a online game --( dont play email games in over 3 years now so i dont know if this is going on in games that are not online ) ----been thinking about sending mike wood a few online problems the last few years but never did - ( and am sure hes got way too much on his plate to look at a section of the game only few play ) -- and i would like to say in no way do i feel that ably`s mods -( we just so happen to be using them ) -- is the cause of the change in artillery operation -- thz --- bud --- (a.k.a. ICED )

[Afrika Korps]

I use vanilla 8.4, no conventions, etc., and the large bore arty tears up men and machines very well...203mm down to 122mm does the job quite well. 81mm mortars seemed ok, but it has been a few weeks since I have used anything smaller than 150mm myself, so I have to take a closer look at it.

[Swamprat]

Just done a test comparing 8.4 to 8.403. OOBs are vanilla, no conventions or mods applied.

Three German platoons + tanks subjected to bombardment by 76mm battery, 122mm battery and 152mm battery. Terrain is scattered woods.

In 8.4 infantry hit by 76mm gained some suppression from direct hits, up to 68pts, but suffered little from splash damage. Tanks suffered nothing unless directly hit. 122mm caused more suppression to both. 152mm, when on target, caused huge suppression throughout the platoon.

In 8.403, direct hits by all three calibres caused suppression to infantry (varied widely) and knocked out tanks if a direct hit. Units next to a blast however were unaffected. Platoons covered in dust and craters had maybe one unit suppressed and the rest fine. Vehicles gained little if no suppression from even 152mm blasts in the next hex.

Seems to me that main difference is splash damage between the two versions, with far more units in a beaten zone completely escaping suppression in 8.403.

I thought the splash issue was fixed for direst fire weapons only?

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: chief

Alby: I played Vanishing Division with 8.403Mod and 8.4 Mod, (ur Mod) and in 8.403 I found the artilley lousy. I replayed it in 8.4Mod and the artillery was back to satisfactory conditions. All prefs were stock or programmer convention depending on mod. The results for game were identical a DRAW, but the score for live player was up there. Suppression worked as it should in your Mod. It seemed like the Germans had IR glasses in 8.403, the scene was night and they could spot everything. The unique thing was that by loading infantry on tanks I could go right up to a position, riders took a hit but tank was usually unharmed and could wipe out the infantry next shot.

I think the reduce in splash damage makes arty seem less effective and perhaps it may be, I would advise turning up arty effectiveness in prefs a little at a time to get results you desire.

Using the Depot mod or not using it should not effect artillery or spotting. no "Kill" stats were changed for arty in the mod that I am aware of. Nor should the mod effect any nighttime spotting, or any spotting for that matter.
what did you have the spotting setting at?

[:)]

[Alby]

One other question...
would fast arty on or off effect anything??[&:]

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: bud

well lets look at the facts - after playing perhaps just 3 games in 8.403 i couldnt belive my eyes --- after hitting inf with off board 105`s they where untouch -- so next game i went with 122`s -- ( i might add that even in 8.4 there was ALWAYS SOME DAMAGE to inf and even other units from o/b 105`s and 122`s ) and again no damage at all -- no pin -- notting -- so 3rd game i went with 155`s -- well you know the rest -- untouch again --- now i know there was some splash adjustments made -( i think that was for more direct fire weapons then for artillery -- too bad -- now most of the direct fire units are useless- the bigger stuff l150`s on up -- smaller ones - 81`s - still good for some soft targets and smoke -) - but this is out of hand -- i never had to adjust artillery up on soft and hard targets before - and i think thats about 10 years for this game too --- i still feel like a deer in the h/lites --- after hitting the same 3 to 4 hexs with 155`s for 4 turns then attacking they where there not even pinned --- so thats the deal -- and it may be noted that this is a online game --( dont play email games in over 3 years now so i dont know if this is going on in games that are not online ) ----been thinking about sending mike wood a few online problems the last few years but never did - ( and am sure hes got way too much on his plate to look at a section of the game only few play ) -- and i would like to say in no way do i feel that ably`s mods -( we just so happen to be using them ) -- is the cause of the change in artillery operation -- thz --- bud --- (a.k.a. ICED )

I sent Mike some of the online Issues you guys mentioned.
He didnt write the online part of the game but said he will look at it when he has time.

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Alby

One other question...
would fast arty on or off effect anything??[&:]

In the past, some gamers have suggested that with fast artillery ON, the results are negatively affected. However, I have seen no proof of this.

[Mike Wood]

Hello...

Only difference between fast artillery on and off is that routine which displays animation is skipped, if on.

Bye...

Michael Wood

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

ORIGINAL: Alby

One other question...
would fast arty on or off effect anything??[&:]

In the past, some gamers have suggested that with fast artillery ON, the results are negatively affected. However, I have seen no proof of this.

[chief]

Alby: Only had Mortars, scene came with no trucks to move them, and the 82's would not move, (scenario design ?????). Accuracy was not my complaint, splash damage in 8.403 was bad as compares to previous Mods. Ur mod had very good splash damage and suppression. Sorry my bad, your mod did not affect spotting, in 8.403 it gave germans uber eyesight. Yet I was able to close up to entrenched infantry with infantry, at times. (a plus).

Nein on fast Artillery I love the effects of a bombardment, especially when I'm delivering it.

I also echo Bud's comment.

As for upping preferences, I could have but then the evaluation would have been useless. Thanks for replies.

[Alby]

I think you are confusing the Mod and the Mech.exe??
The mod does not affect spotting or artillery.
The mod was first released with mech versions 8.3 and then 8.4.
so that is why I think you are thinking that previous mods had differet artillery effects.
when It actuallity it is the Mech.exe that affects that.

[chief]

Alby: I'm not blaming the Mod......I'll just drop this now....my writeup is probably incoherent.

[m10bob]

Alby..I did not understand your question to be concerning any mods.
My response was directed at the entire Steel Panthers genre since its' inception.
In comparison to my own, actual combat experiences, SP is not a good representation for arty whatsoever.
True artillery will make hardened infantry hug terra firma and some will break, (if the fire is prolonged.)
This is not the same as "suppressed". This is "walk in and mop up with NO return fire time".
Mike changed small arms for the better back, maybe 3 years before Matrix, and his understanding of small arms effectiveness is "dead on" in so many ways, but I think the ineffectiveness of ANY artillery is hard-coded.
Indeed, if it were made more realistic, at this small scale, it would likely be too "gross" for some of us gamers to continue playing.
I outlined what *I* do to compensate, (to some extent), but I have no desires to return, (fer sure), to a bad part of my past.....

In my personal library, I have probably 200 books.
!97 are probably on WW2.
I believe I have (maybe) 3 books on VietNam.
I don't even look at them, (and 2 are still in the wrappers).
Nuff said.
NOBODY needs to get their feelings hurt by my comments.
They are not directed at you, or any other "mods" whatsoever.
As far as snipers are concerned.
If you think yours are "effective, fine.
If they were in my unit and as piss-poor shots as they are in this game, we would probably have dusted them ourselves to save the ammo.
10 rounds should be at least 9 "kills"..
Article 15's don't work in combat when people are getting killed.

[robot]

I too have gotten rid of all my snipers. Im not that great of a shot in real life. But at 200 yards i know i can hit what i shoot at. ive had snipers at only 200 yards not hit anything. hell the snipers in my outfit could take out a orange at 1200 yards. the snipers i had in the game werent the worth the a pot to piss in tho.