CHS too much fuel and too many ports

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el cid again
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RE: CHS too much fuel and too many ports

Post by el cid again »

My friendly advice to you would be if you want to purport yourself as an authority on anything, cite your checkable sources. If you can't, don't make assertions.


For the very last time: you are confused.

You do not understand the topic.

The topic is NOT your data!

The topic is how to understand the data.

I am surrounded by primary and secondary sources. I will tell you from experience NO primary source is EVER complete. But primary sources are useful IF you do a proper analysis - and IF you suppliment them with other data. [If you don't have primary sources on barges and watercraft and port facilities, you cannot know storage data in a complete sense, for example. Maybe you don't care - but until you look at all the data you may make significant errors if you assume it "is too small to matter."] Anyway - I was ONLY analysing what you said - not the data itself. It does not matter if your data is perfect if you cannot relate it to the fictional world of a simulation. You must convert the data or it is not going to be a valid sim. Fact of life. And whatever compromises you make players must live with.
el cid again
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RE: CHS too much fuel and too many ports

Post by el cid again »

First, most players of the game probably do not want to know, or care about, such detail.

I agree.

But THIS thread is NOT for players. It is for modders. And modders SHOULD care. If they don't - they produce stuff that isn't correct.
el cid again
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RE: CHS too much fuel and too many ports

Post by el cid again »

We must remember that this is a game primarily based on conflict and not logistics. Although I see both points and i feel that both are talking past one another. Indeed there was some 4.5M barrels of fuel for the primary use of the major fleet units. There was also av gas, diesel, and the like, as well as an entire civilian economy that needs modeling.

Without logistics, military operations have no meaning at all.

And these military ops involve coal, gasoline for vehicles, avgas for planes, and in fact the civil fuel for at least some industry - so at least part of the civil economy is involved too. We cannot ignore it because it is there. No gasoline? Motor vehicles don't move. No avgas? Planes won't fly. No coal? Coal fired ships won't move. etc.
el cid again
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RE: CHS too much fuel and too many ports

Post by el cid again »

Yes the logistics are horrible in this game and could have been better thought out. Yes it is important to take all the above into consideration when one wants to design a realistic logistics system. But at what level does the average player feel comfortable with as far as a complex logistics model?

The ONLY thing that makes any sense to me is to figure out INSIDE THE GAME SYSTEM what numbers are close to right? Players do not have to worry their pretty little heads about how we get the numbers - but WE who plug them in should worry about getting them right. Not a thing requires players even know how we got it right? But we should not say "it is too complicated - just plug in whatever you feel like." In that case play stock - save yourself the trouble of modding at all. Or say "this is science fiction - I don't care if ships are 100% too fuel efficient - etc."
el cid again
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RE: CHS too much fuel and too many ports

Post by el cid again »

In terms of a good simulation, then, I underline again the fact that the detailed sources I've studied and mentioned earlier indicate that there is too much fuel (and supplies) available all over the place on Dec. 7th, 1941, and that there are too many bases, along with a few that are overdeveloped in the standard game and CHS compared to their real state on Dec. 7th, 1941.

And while there are indeed gross errors in stock and CHS, you are ignoring a basic fact in your conclusion: there are TOO FEW bases and not enough lines of code to add them all. Not sure why you cannot read a map - or why you do not believe me about places - some of which ARE already added but you have not yet seen them. Yes - some places are too developed - and some not enough. But no - there are not too many bases. I can add more bases in just China than there are lines for. Or the islands near the heart of the game - Indonesia and the Philippines. Cebu has a shipyard - not just a tiny port - and actual industry. More port and industry in Tacloban. A general conclusion needs to account for all the data - not just some of it. And if you have not read Nanyo, you do not know the state of the Japanese Mandates (the only primary source in English).
el cid again
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RE: CHS too much fuel and too many ports

Post by el cid again »

Another aspect that needs to be dealt with is the low fuel consumption of all vessels modelled in the game,

This is where I came in. And CHS won't even allow it to be fixed this time around. But UNTIL it is fixed, it does not matter if you have good fuel data in ports or not. I sailed the Kiddo Butai for a month of combat, from Pearl to San Francisco, then returned to Japan without refueling - and was not out of gas or ammunition - what I needed was more planes! Nonsense. I had LOTS of fuel still! The average ship is 100% too fuel efficient. Some are many times that. A few are not good enough. But if big ships are too efficient, the little ones feed off them.
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m10bob
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RE: CHS too much fuel and too many ports

Post by m10bob »

SERENITY NOW!

[:D]LMAO....George Castanza!!??[:D]
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el cid again
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RE: CHS too much fuel and too many ports

Post by el cid again »

From how I see the WitP engine work, fuel is only used by ships. Supply points are used by everything else. Therefore, fuel does seem to only represent ship fuel.


You are correct. There are two technical problems with this:

1) The ships in the game do not all use the same "fuel." The most common cases include fuel oil, diesel oil and coal. There also are a few vessels which use gasoline. And in the case of steamships that normally burn fuel oil, in some instances they can burn crude oil - and this was important in this campaign. These factors mean that some of what we consider "supply points" (representing diesel oil and gasoline) and "oil" (representing fuel oil) and "resources" (representing coal) should be converted to "fuel" - based on some set of assumptions considered reasonable. These factors will INCREASE the ship fuel over what you think it should be.

2) Military units (and in some cases where there is heavy industry being fed non-military entities) will consume some of the fuel you think is ship fuel. This is exaserbated because some of the stored fuels at all major sites is actually "supply points" (representing diesel oil and gasoline) - and not fuel oil in the formal sense at all. These factors will DECREASE the ship fuel over what you think it should be.

All I have tried to say is that you need to consider all these factors in calculating the values - because otherwise you will not have correct values for inventories in game terms. I have not said anything about your data per se - except it is not detailed enough. Further while it may indicate the storage capacity - it probably does not even do that - capacity was probably greater than the numbers you have - because not all tanks were full - and because you are not counting non tank storage in various watercraft used to store fuels. IF your data really is entirely ship fuel oil, there is a good deal of other petroleum stored at these locations as well. More likely, your data includes those other products - and you need to figure out to what extent? Either way, you need estimates for all fuels, and all fuel usage requirements that draw on these facilities, and all other facilities and vessels used for storage not included as well.

I am not yet addressing this matter - except informally - to be helpful. But I probably have much of the data - and I will address it when I have finished with planes and ships and devices. But rather than make you wait, I tried to help you understand how to think about this information - and how raw data must be modified to get game values. If you don't think about doing this properly, you cannot get correct values. This seems likely to be what happened to the original data.

Your contract data is not necessairily bad - but it is necessairily incomplete. You must add to it all civil data - including that from foreign companies and governments. Further, if you are using Navy data, you may have to add some army material as well. There really was a B-17 route criss crossing the Pacific (by a very zig zaggy route) from Hawaii to the Philippines that did NOT use the Pan Am Clipper route - and this route was supplied with aviation fuel - and of course it could be stored at each island. If you have not identified all these islands and their facilities, you are not yet complete. Then there is the data for Japanese islands - see Nanyo for it - and data for neutrals as well - although you may reject using that data - you must know what it is before you decide. Near the map edges - e.g. in Siberia and Alaska - you may also decide to ignore some ports - but you need to understand what you are rejecting before you do that. Thus almost everyone would reject Whittier - but when you know that Elmendorf depends on it - you may change your mind.
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akdreemer
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RE: CHS too much fuel and too many ports

Post by akdreemer »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Another aspect that needs to be dealt with is the low fuel consumption of all vessels modelled in the game,

This is where I came in. And CHS won't even allow it to be fixed this time around. But UNTIL it is fixed, it does not matter if you have good fuel data in ports or not. I sailed the Kiddo Butai for a month of combat, from Pearl to San Francisco, then returned to Japan without refueling - and was not out of gas or ammunition - what I needed was more planes! Nonsense. I had LOTS of fuel still! The average ship is 100% too fuel efficient. Some are many times that. A few are not good enough. But if big ships are too efficient, the little ones feed off them.

Actually you can fix it by increasing fleet speeds for Japanese to 18kts and Allied to 20kts by modifying the the cruise speeds and endurance value of the various warships to this figure, while keeping the same fuel capacity. I have tested this and it works very well. Many of the designed endurance values are for as built and usually standard displacement. The in service endurances at various speeds are almost always much less than the designed.

Another problem is that ships begin losing propulsion effeciency each day they are at sea. I have posted on this before and the effect is greater for the tropics than temperate climates. As one example Friedman discusses this as part of the design work on the Somers class destroyers where a 1/2RPM degredation of shaft speeds each day at sea was used in calculating max speeds. There is a very good look at this for both the KGV and Vanguard in British Battleships of WWII by Allan Raven and John Roberts. I am sure there are other sources.

Yet another factor in decreasing endurance at any speed is the increase in displacement that all warships in the Pacific war experienced, whether it be increased arament (primarily AA guns) and the subsequent increase in personnel to more electronics such as radars. All of these also add a certain amount of extra weight in the form of extra supports, strengthened decks, etc.

Other factors also contribute but it is suffice to say at this time that the endurance model can be tweaked by the above mentioned adjustments and it will give a more realistic simulation.
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akdreemer
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RE: CHS too much fuel and too many ports

Post by akdreemer »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Another aspect that needs to be dealt with is the low fuel consumption of all vessels modelled in the game,

This is where I came in. And CHS won't even allow it to be fixed this time around. But UNTIL it is fixed, it does not matter if you have good fuel data in ports or not. I sailed the Kiddo Butai for a month of combat, from Pearl to San Francisco, then returned to Japan without refueling - and was not out of gas or ammunition - what I needed was more planes! Nonsense. I had LOTS of fuel still! The average ship is 100% too fuel efficient. Some are many times that. A few are not good enough. But if big ships are too efficient, the little ones feed off them.

Yup, I do agree with you observation here. If any thing fleet speeds are to low and endurance is about double. The simple fix is to increase Japanese waships cruise speeds to 18kts and Allied to 20kts. And yes, we have had this discussion before. Some examples:

Porter
Fuel (tns):651
Endurance (nautical miles) @:
12kts: 6380 Planned
15kts: 4080 In service
20kts: 3700 In service

Myoko (1941)
Fuel (tns):7463
Endurance (nautical miles) @:
14kts: 7463 In service
18kts: 5000 In service





el cid again
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RE: CHS too much fuel and too many ports

Post by el cid again »

Actually you can fix it by increasing fleet speeds for Japanese to 18kts and Allied to 20kts by modifying the the cruise speeds and endurance value of the various warships to this figure, while keeping the same fuel capacity. I have tested this and it works very well. Many of the designed endurance values are for as built and usually standard displacement. The in service endurances at various speeds are almost always much less than the designed.

This sounds exactly backwards. INCREASING speeds means you LOSE fuel efficiency - and that means you lose range. Further, the real fleets do NOT have a single "fleet speed" - but several (depending on when the ship was built). Old Japanese cruisers have a cruising speed of 16 knots for example. Putting these with modern ships creates fuel efficiency issues - as it should. I have a problem with ships that move too far on too little fuel - increasing cruising speed only makes that problem worse IMHO.
el cid again
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RE: CHS too much fuel and too many ports

Post by el cid again »

Another problem is that ships begin losing propulsion effeciency each day they are at sea. I have posted on this before and the effect is greater for the tropics than temperate climates. As one example Friedman discusses this as part of the design work on the Somers class destroyers where a 1/2RPM degredation of shaft speeds each day at sea was used in calculating max speeds. There is a very good look at this for both the KGV and Vanguard in British Battleships of WWII by Allan Raven and John Roberts. I am sure there are other sources.

Yet another factor in decreasing endurance at any speed is the increase in displacement that all warships in the Pacific war experienced, whether it be increased arament (primarily AA guns) and the subsequent increase in personnel to more electronics such as radars. All of these also add a certain amount of extra weight in the form of extra supports, strengthened decks, etc.

These problems are real. We can deal with the second by rating later mods slower - usually we can get the correct value - and we can estimate it with good precision. The former is pretty well handled by the game. You are NEVER allowed to exceed full speed (but ships can and did) - and there is a map error costing ALL ships 15% - so it means that you probably also account for winds, currents, maybe even maneuvering.
[The ships are rated in knots - and the map was supposed to be in nautical miles - see the manual - but it ended up in statute miles - so ships pay too much "speed" to move a hex - always.]
el cid again
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RE: CHS too much fuel and too many ports

Post by el cid again »

Yup, I do agree with you observation here. If any thing fleet speeds are to low and endurance is about double. The simple fix is to increase Japanese waships cruise speeds to 18kts and Allied to 20kts. And yes, we have had this discussion before. Some examples:

Porter
Fuel (tns):651
Endurance (nautical miles) @:
12kts: 6380 Planned
15kts: 4080 In service
20kts: 3700 In service

Myoko (1941)
Fuel (tns):7463
Endurance (nautical miles) @:
14kts: 7463 In service
18kts: 5000 In service

Yep. You got it right. Since ships are not up for change in CHS this time, I have not been able to address it. But since I won't play until it is right, I did it anyway, and it will appear in RHS (which may get a new name to avoid confusion).
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akdreemer
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RE: CHS too much fuel and too many ports

Post by akdreemer »

ORIGINAL: el cid again

[The ships are rated in knots - and the map was supposed to be in nautical miles - see the manual - but it ended up in statute miles - so ships pay too much "speed" to move a hex - always.]

Easy enough to convert since 1 nautical mile = 1.150779 miles. Thus a 3700 nm endurance would equal 4258 miles/71 hexes (rounded to nearest whole). Just an extra step.. but I wonder if the code already takes into effect?


el cid again
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RE: CHS too much fuel and too many ports

Post by el cid again »

Easy enough to convert since 1 nautical mile = 1.150779 miles. Thus a 3700 nm endurance would equal 4258 miles/71 hexes (rounded to nearest whole). Just an extra step.. but I wonder if the code already takes into effect?

Joe, Andrew and I looked at this pretty hard. It seems clear the game does not take it into account. It is a strange error - because navigation maps always use nautical miles - even though only one country (USA) is not metric! They work so much better I am shocked that land miles were ever even considered. But it appears our map makers never considered using nautical miles, and no one even realized there was an issue. Anyway, it is a fudge factor in the opposite direction of "too much range" for ships. The only one I am aware of.
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akdreemer
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RE: CHS too much fuel and too many ports

Post by akdreemer »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Easy enough to convert since 1 nautical mile = 1.150779 miles. Thus a 3700 nm endurance would equal 4258 miles/71 hexes (rounded to nearest whole). Just an extra step.. but I wonder if the code already takes into effect?

Joe, Andrew and I looked at this pretty hard. It seems clear the game does not take it into account. It is a strange error - because navigation maps always use nautical miles - even though only one country (USA) is not metric! They work so much better I am shocked that land miles were ever even considered. But it appears our map makers never considered using nautical miles, and no one even realized there was an issue. Anyway, it is a fudge factor in the opposite direction of "too much range" for ships. The only one I am aware of.

Then it appears that I will have to go back and redo all my endurance values.. argh!
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