Arty effectiveness?

[FlashfyreSP]

The problem with the Sniper unit is that the game treats it like any other infantry unit; it has to 'pass' its Experience and Morale checks, and its To Hit chance is calculated the same as the regular grunts in the squad.

This unit needs to have its FC rating increased to the maximum, if for no other reason than to 'improve' its To Hit chance to something closer to that of a real sniper. Becasue the FC rating is directly applied to the To Hit chance, snipers with FCs of 5+ have To Hit chances of 40+% on their first shot. This is why snipers in the H2H version are so much better; that and their weapon has a higher accuracy and range.


Also, increasng the HE Kill factor of the sniper weapon greatly increases the chance of producing a casualty if a hit is achieved. In my personal US Army OOB, I have two units, the US Sniper Team and the Marksman, and two weapons, the M1903 Sniper and the M1903 w/Scope. The Sniper Team is a 2-man team with a FC of 10; the Marksman is a single-man unit with a FC of 5. The wepons are as follows:
M1903 Sniper:
Max Range 80 (20 hexes)
Accuracy 80 (20 hexes)
HE Kill 8

M1903 w/Scope:
Max Range 60 (15 hexes)
Accuracy 60 (15 hexes)
HE Kill 5

M1903 Rifle (base weapon for Rifle Squad):
Max Range 48 (12 hexes)
Accuracy 16 (4 hexes)
HE Kill 1

Keep in mind that the M1903 Rifle is a Prime Infantry class weapon and is carried by all members of the unit's crew. If all members (say 10 men) fire their weapon, this is treated as 10 'HE Kill 1' shots, which is more like 1 'HE Kill 10' shot; at least 1 or 2 casualties will result. Likewise, my M1903 w/Scope is a Prime Infantry weapon, and is carried by all members of the Marksman unit. However, that is only 1 man. An 'HE Kill 1' weapon has a much lower chance of causing a casualty; increasing the HE Kill increases this chance. On the other hand, my M1903 Sniper is a Secondary Infantry weapon; it is assumed to be carried by only 1 man. And the same issue applies here as to the M1903 w/Scope; the HE Kill factor must be increased in order to increase the chance of a casualty with each shot.

A recent test between these two sniper weapons went as follows:

Sniper Team: EXP 70, MOR 70, INF CMND 50
Marksman: EXP 70, MOR 70, INF CMND 50
Marksman(M1903 base rifle): EXP 70, MOR 70, INF CMND 50
Target: 3 GE Recon Patrols at 6 hexes

TURN 1
First shot - Sniper Team (FC 10)
Unmodified To Hit chance: 45%
Result: Hit, 1 casualty

First shot - Marksman (FC 5)
Unmodified To Hit chance: 51%
Result: Hit, 1 casualty

First shot - Marksman Basic (FC 0)
Unmodified To Hit chance: 11%
Result: Miss
---------------------------------
Second shot - Sniper Team (FC 10)
Unmodified To Hit chance: 45%
Result: Miss (target pinned)

Second shot - Marksman (FC 5)
Unmodified To Hit chance: 51%
Result: Miss (target pinned)

Second shot - Marksman Basic (FC 0)
Unmodified To Hit chance: 11%
Result: Hit, 1 casualty
---------------------------------
TURN 2
First shot - Sniper Team (FC 10)
Unmodified To Hit chance: 91%
Result: Miss (target pinned)

First shot - Marksman (FC 5)
Unmodified To Hit chance: 82%
Result: Miss (target pinned)

First shot - Marksman Basic (FC 0)
Unmodified To Hit chance: 18%
Result: Miss (target pinned)
---------------------------------
Second shot - Sniper Team (FC 10)
Unmodified To Hit chance: 94%
Result: Miss (target pinned)

Second shot - Marksman (FC 5)
Unmodified To Hit chance: 94%
Result: Miss (target pinned)

Second shot - Marksman Basic (FC 0)
Unmodified To Hit chance: 23%
Result: Miss (target pinned)
---------------------------------
Third shot - Sniper Team (FC 10)
Unmodified To Hit chance: 94%
Result: Miss (target pinned)

As can be seen, increasing the FC rating makes the sniper a better 'hitter', particularly on that all-important first shot, as does increasing the sniper weapon's Accuracy. Also, increasing the sniper weapon's HE Kill factor increases the sniper's 'lethality', resulting on more casualty shots.

[Afrika Korps]

I use my Japanese snipers as "eyes" and to automatically assault tanks that happen to drive past them, usually to fairly good result. That is a good idea about raising the FC rating on snipers (what is the max anyway? Also, by raising the morale and experience, that should help too)...I may modify my OOB on my snipers, since I actually never fire their guns anymore, since they usually miss on that first shot, and I don't do follow up shots so they can stay hidden.

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Alby..I did not understand your question to be concerning any mods.

IT wasnt, it was concerning the 8.403 mech.exe
[:)]

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: chief

Alby: I'm not blaming the Mod......I'll just drop this now....my writeup is probably incoherent.

NP chief
Just wanted to make sure you understood.
[:)]

[Riun T]

I am sitting here kind of dumbfounded with all of your varieing posts and woundering what u guys must have done to your installed versions of this game?? cause I'm running 8.4 with the only alterations being fast arrty off and a couple of seconds added to messages screens and opp fire response time, and I've noticed and learned that with every ver. of this game since I started on ver.5.0 that the artillery is almost always 3 hexes or 150m short of where u call it to. but I've also noticed that #1 as all of my fielded units get experience with their duties u assign them threw the campaign or battle your fighting and learn most importantly HOW YOUR TACTICS ARE USING THEM, u improve or degrade your units by what u ask of them and how u place and move them.
Ask yourself what ranges u want them firing at? did u notice that by moving snipers up with recce or p/t hq units that the sniping,arrty calling for correction, and visabelity for all units accuracy improve??. Units I find in this game are only as usefull as the players true knowledge of a units real doctrine. snipers where an army's extended eyes and didn't always pull the trigger, and just like recce make shitty engineers and heavy infantry make shitty recce? Why do u think FO's where never higher than 2ndLT?? because there where alot of em, and they where always up front. use a bit more common scence when looking at which units your asking to do what and does it really jive with their real planed intent? and give them the benefit of the expert observation of units designed for it [8|] RT

[Goblin]

You're right, we're all n00bs.


Goblin

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Goblin

You're right, we're all n00bs.


Goblin

A hint of humility from Goblin? (gasp!)

[Goblin]

Sorry. I obviously must be degrading my units by not using them properly. I will try and play the game a few years before posting next time...[;)]

[KG Erwin]

Yikes, I just had a bit of sarcasm dripped on me.

[Alby]

[:D]

[FlashfyreSP]

Sorry, Riun T, but a sniper's main purpose is killing enemy soldiers, preferably officers, and usually behind enemy lines. Not recon...that's what Cav and Recce forces are for. Snipers infiltrate into the enemy's rear, or take up positions in front of the MLR to hinder the enemy's advance. They are extremely proficient marksmen, and by doctrine forego a shot unless they are positive they can get the kill. But SPWAW does not portray them correctly, unless you adjust the unit's stats.

I, too, have been playing since version 4.5, and have designed a number of scenarios and campaigns, but apparently I am not playing it "right" either. I have spent years digging into the mechanics of how this game works, and how it doesn't; I think I can safely say I know a good bit about why units act the way they do.

But I'm still a n00b, too....

[bud]

hey guys -- thought this post was about artillery in v8.403 -- lol -- any one doing some more tests plz state findings -- we tested a online game last nite with art for soft and hard targets set at 120% -- and made only a slight change on unit damage -- note -- still no damage to armored units even on direct hits - perhaps auto rally might be repairing just enough so i dont see it - but even so -( thats no reason to turn it off just for a test ) - so its back to try to find the right % adjustment -- will let you know [8D]

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: bud

hey guys -- thought this post was about artillery in v8.403 -- lol -- any one doing some more tests plz state findings -- we tested a online game last nite with art for soft and hard targets set at 120% -- and made only a slight change on unit damage -- note -- still no damage to armored units even on direct hits - perhaps auto rally might be repairing just enough so i dont see it - but even so -( thats no reason to turn it off just for a test ) - so its back to try to find the right % adjustment -- will let you know [8D]

Bud, what kind of results are you expecting? Are you getting your butt kicked in online play? Give us some specifics --what sides you are playing, time period, which options enabled etc.

[Alby]

ORIGINAL: bud

hey guys -- thought this post was about artillery in v8.403 -- lol -- any one doing some more tests plz state findings -- we tested a online game last nite with art for soft and hard targets set at 120% -- and made only a slight change on unit damage -- note -- still no damage to armored units even on direct hits - perhaps auto rally might be repairing just enough so i dont see it - but even so -( thats no reason to turn it off just for a test ) - so its back to try to find the right % adjustment -- will let you know [8D]

well it started out about artilley in 8.403 but somehow we got on to snipers, Mods, etc etc......[&:]
[:)]

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

Sorry, Riun T, but a sniper's main purpose is killing enemy soldiers, preferably officers, and usually behind enemy lines. Not recon...that's what Cav and Recce forces are for. Snipers infiltrate into the enemy's rear, or take up positions in front of the MLR to hinder the enemy's advance. They are extremely proficient marksmen, and by doctrine forego a shot unless they are positive they can get the kill. But SPWAW does not portray them correctly, unless you adjust the unit's stats.

I, too, have been playing since version 4.5, and have designed a number of scenarios and campaigns, but apparently I am not playing it "right" either. I have spent years digging into the mechanics of how this game works, and how it doesn't; I think I can safely say I know a good bit about why units act the way they do.

But I'm still a n00b, too....

Kevin, at this point, we are all relearning the game, and I say that with no hint of sarcasm. A lot of damage was done to the OOBs in the past few years, so an effort is being made to restore some sanity. Some players, who have grown accustomed to "the old style", will naturally rebel against the changes. So be it. Those players can still keep the old unit values and wail away at their opponents.

I find it all a little strange. The game's programmer wants to improve the code, and an enterprising OOB designer wants to revamp the OOBs to work properly with the game code. One would think that everyone would support this.

What's the problem here?

[Afrika Korps]

Hey, I support any effort to make this great game...greater. [:D]

Personally, I am waiting for the smoke to clear and things settle down a bit before I play anything beyond vanilla SPWAW. There seems to be some confusion and disagreement, which is only natural. I will let those with more SPWAW experience figure everything out before I swoop in and enjoy the fruits of everyones labors. [&o]

[Riun T]

Goblin I'm suprised coming from u ,?? not enough to do at the depot??and I was mentioning this point to highlight that not ALL of the players in this game are as profecient as say you!!! and don't instantly blame or find lacking in any OOB's or MOD's or preferences to just enjoy the game do I ?? RT

[bud]

------------- Bud, what kind of results are you expecting? Are you getting your butt kicked in online play? Give us some specifics --what sides you are playing, time period, which options enabled etc - ------------ ya that must be it , am getting my butt kicked --- thz for your trying to think why ably start this post -- and why i said what i found in the new version --( it makes no differants what side you have -- the year it is or any but the NORMAL SETTING`s-100% on all exp troop q set at 70 ) -- and more specifics on the matter are posted in my earlier reply to ablys post --- i was just looking for if someone else notice a BIG change in artillery -- because it does change the way you play it big time --- almost as going from a 3 dimensional game to a 2 1/2 --- ps always looking for new players for online " K G " -- thz bud -- ( a.k.a. ICED ) [;)]

[Mike Wood]

Nevermind. Started new thread on snipers.

[Alby]

combat log
Artillery set at 150% vs armor

155mm How firing indirect, range 34 hexes
~SdKfz 251/10 is hit, Suspension damaged by 155mm M1918 M1
155mm How has no spotter

155mm How firing indirect, range 35 hexes
155mm How firing indirect, range 35 hexes
GE Recon Team DESTROYED ****
~PzKpfw III M is hit, FRONT HULL hit by 155mm M1918 M1, using HE ammo, ~Pen 68, Armor 65, PzKpfw III M DESTROYED
155mm How firing indirect, range 35 hexes
~PzKpfw III M is hit, Suspension damaged by 155mm M1918 M1
155mm How has no spotter

155mm How firing indirect, range 33 hexes
~Tiger I (early) is hit, Ineffective suspension hit by
155mm How has no spotter

155mm How firing indirect, range 32 hexes
~Panther G is hit, Suspension damaged by 155mm M1918 M1
155mm How firing indirect, range 32 hexes
~Panther G is hit, Bottom hit by 155mm M1918 M1, using HE ammo, ~Pen 48, Armor 10, Panther G DESTROYED

Looks like it has some effect at 150% might be setting to go with for now.
maybe [&:]