Realistic or NOT! --- You decide.

[Wolfpack_MatrixForum]

Me as allies vs Japanese AI NIK Mod 5.0

CA Houston intercepts lightly escorted convoy near Davao.
Commander is Riker. 50/52 I think. Experience is 67/60.

Now has 96 sys,60 FLT and 28 Fire.

Does the below seem possible? I didnt realize that the Japanese navy put such crack crews in their APs. [:'(]

Night Time Surface Combat, near Davao at 41,61

Japanese Ships
ML Ikitsushima
AP Gyoko Maru
AP Shikano Maru
AP Shinkoku Maru
AP Shinwa Maru
AP Siraha Maru
AP Somedono Maru, Shell hits 4
AP Sumanoura Maru
AP Taihei Maru
AP Taiho Maru
AP Taizin Maru
AP Tango Maru
AP Tarushima Maru
AP Tatsujin Maru
AP Tatsuta Maru
AP Teiryu Maru
AP Tenryu Maru
AP Toyo Maru #2
AP Yamafuku Maru
AP Zyuyo Maru
AP Chinko Maru, Shell hits 5, on fire
AK Taiyu Maru
AK Tokiwasan Maru

Allied Ships
CA Houston, Shell hits 35, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
66 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

[kevini100]

What was the range of the combat and was anyone surprised?

A Jap minelayer is present. This ship would have some guns.

K

[Ron Saueracker]

Complete BS in my opinion. Surface combat is, ahhhhh.....wanting as well. This could be excused as a rare anomaly by some but I've seen this silliness too often.

[wild_Willie2]

Ok, since you are using NIK mod 5.0, this could have happend....

Night combat, allied force gets surprised.
MS fires at houston from short range and penetrates her belt (NIK increased the pen values of light guns to give them the chance of actually penetrating the belt of older enemy ships), the penetrating shot hits triggers an ammo explosion (BOOM).

TF also fire on houston from close range, but the damage has already been done...
A one in a million shot......


Check the combar replay to see if I am right [;)][:D]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

Ok, since you are using NIK mod 5.0, this could have happend....

Night combat, allied force gets surprised.
MS fires at houston from short range and penetrates her belt (NIK increased the pen values of light guns to give them the chance of actually penetrating the belt of older enemy ships), the penetrating shot hits triggers an ammo explosion (BOOM).

TF also fire on houston from close range, but the damage has already been done...
A one in a million shot......


Check the combar replay to see if I am right [;)][:D]

How many times do we see this happen though? I want the designer to run the lotteries.[:D]

[wild_Willie2]

Well, if WITP would be set on Terry Pratchett's "discworld", those million-to-one shots would happen "just when you needed it the most" ......

As for myself, I have never seen a combat result like this one.....

[BLUESBOB]

How many guns on those transport ships? It seems with 20-30 guns firing the Japs should have got some hits. I don't know about 35, though. Gotta remember that EVERY Jap unit is crack because of the war in China. (sarcastically).

I guess the big lesson is never send a lone ship to do a task forces job. Especially in the early phase of the war.

[Ron Saueracker]

I have seen incredible numbers of combats of real combat ships vs unescorted amphib TFs and the amphib TFs always escape nearly intact. If escorts are present this is even more the case because even one escort will "save" the convoy every time. I have yet to see a result like the 4 pipers achieved vs the Japanese invasion TF at Balikpapan, even when the Japanese TF was unescorted.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: BLUESBOB

How many guns on those transport ships? It seems with 20-30 guns firing the Japs should have got some hits. I don't know about 35, though. Gotta remember that EVERY Jap unit is crack because of the war in China. (sarcastically).

I guess the big lesson is never send a lone ship to do a task forces job. Especially in the early phase of the war.

Yeah, the Germans learned that after slaughtering convoys in the Atlantic for two years with only one ship raider TFs.[8D]

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Wolfpack
Allied Ships
CA Houston, Shell hits 35, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
66 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

One of them strange results we see from time to time, out of million engagements we play each and every day in our games (here comes the "company yes man" Oleg [:D]) You know, like Kormoran vs Syndey or something...

BTW did you watch combat replay? What ship scored most of those hits on Houston? I sure hope it wasn't AKs. ML Ikitsushima was large minelayer, sometimes designated as CM (minelaying cruiser) along with couple other, even bigger IJN minelayers, though it was more like large DD in size.

Armed with 3x5,5in guns (now I don't know whether 5,5in guns can penetrate early USN CA armor but based on above AAR I assume they will)

O.

[BLUESBOB]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: BLUESBOB

How many guns on those transport ships? It seems with 20-30 guns firing the Japs should have got some hits. I don't know about 35, though. Gotta remember that EVERY Jap unit is crack because of the war in China. (sarcastically).

I guess the big lesson is never send a lone ship to do a task forces job. Especially in the early phase of the war.

Yeah, the Germans learned that after slaughtering convoys in the Atlantic for two years with only one ship raider TFs.[8D]

Wow, I never knew the Germans were playing WiTP!

(Might work well in real life, but we're talkin' this game!)

[:D]

[Nikademus]

From the looks of it, your captain got a little too aggressive and charged in at point blank range and took a wholloping from a mass of guns. A more conservative captain would probably have stood off on the range, gotten fewer hits but also had fewer hits scored on him (+ they wouldn't penetrate even the tin-clad protection of the CA leaving it more or less intact unless a lucky secondary or teritiary weapon was struck.

that was why i made the change i did. to give lightly armed DD's and CL's [edit...and small escorts (PC/ML etc) a chance to fight off at least tin-clad designs at close to point blank range when they go into "atlantic raider" mode without proper escort to evade detection by the search routine. Unless a torp is scored, the unit's are helpless against even a single ship. [;)] Granted here there were no DD's but the AP's and the ML packed alot of light guns. Howver the 3in guns would not have penetrated unless the range got down to <3000 yards or so (and maybe not even then. min 4.7in needed). Do you have the save? i'd love to take a look at it.

lansoar@hotmail.com

[m10bob]

Was this day or night?
During day, you'd think the Ca would stand off and eliminate any threat before advancing, but in the game engine, I don't know if "the threat" is recognized.
So often during these surface engagements, the range (and shooting) start off at ranges WAY BEYOND the capability of all but BB guns, and yet even DD's are scoring hits.
As mentioned, the Germans were VERY successful in WW1 and WW2 with single ship convoy raiders.
(See the Emden of WW1).
With all that unarmed steel in the example convoy, you would "think" to see a lot more one-sidedness, but going the other way![;)]

[Wolfpack_MatrixForum]

Sorry Nik no save. I kept playing turns and then overwrote it when a PBEM email came in and I needed to switch. It was at night so I suspect it was at very close range. I can't remember for sure though. [:(]

I will fire up a new game and see if I can reproduce.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Complete BS in my opinion. Surface combat is, ahhhhh.....wanting as well. This could be excused as a rare anomaly by some but I've seen this silliness too often.

CONGRADULATIONS RON...., you have presented the ONLY explaination for this situation that makes any sense at all. Even if the Houston was suprised to stumble into a Japanese convoy, she still out guns and out armors the entire thing several times over. A mountain lion might be suprised by a flock of sheep--- but you can bet that there will be mutton on the table that night, not lion chops. Complete BS says it all.

[rroberson]

In one of my games I caught a Japanese CVE and single destroyer with a surface group...CA, CL and several destroyers...the CVE walked away with just 4 hits...I believe EVERY one of my ships suffered hits.


It happens... I also had the famous destroyers pound the Japanese BB turn once...fun fun.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: rroberson

In one of my games I caught a Japanese CVE and single destroyer with a surface group...CA, CL and several destroyers...the CVE walked away with just 4 hits...I believe EVERY one of my ships suffered hits.

It happens,,,IN THE GAME! In Real Life...dream on....

[Nomad]

Rob, wasn't that our game that had the file corruption where my CL Boise sank two of you BBs and damaged two others? What I remember about that one was the combat took about 45 minutes.

[Tom Hunter]

The problem is that real captains of APs don't close in for the kill when a CA rolls into their convoy. They run like hell.

This is good proof that the surface combat model is a mess just like the air combat and land combat models. I am playing a fun game with all 3 of them, but I do wonder what the design team was thinking.

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Rob, wasn't that our game that had the file corruption where my CL Boise sank two of you BBs and damaged two others? What I remember about that one was the combat took about 45 minutes.

Yup that was it.... I remember that broke my spirit and realized that maybe this wasnt as good of a simulation as I hoped.