Maps for MWIF

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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Ballista
The maps are looking great ! One thing though- would it be possible to "lighten" the rivers a bit so that they stand out a little more- they appear to fade into the background terrain a bit (or is this because of the screenshot process, or just my fading eyes ?).....

- Don

The artist supplied me with the equivalent of scanned images from the WIF FE paper maps. The colors for the rivers are basically 2 on the paper maps: an interior light blue and a dark blue outline. The computer translates this into a screen image using anti-aliasing and there are 30 or 40 different shades of blue in the images I received. The anti-aliasing was done against a white background.

What I have done is use 3 shades of blue, matching the 2 from the paper map exactly and adding a third, lighter shade for some of the anti-aliasing effects. These bitmaps take up an enormous amount of room and I have compressed them to 4 colors (no river/lake being the 4th) and done several other programming tricks to reduce the amount of memory they need. As always there are tradeoffs between memory, speed, and functionality. In this case the functionality is the rendered image on the screen. Speed is the refresh rate, and memory is the constraint imposed by Microsoft on the 'amount' of bitmaps available at one time in program memory. I am pushing all 3 of those constraints pretty hard.

So, I have complete control over changing the 3 shades of blue, but beyond that, I do not feel like investing any more time. For example, I could make the rivers the same color as the blue of the label for the rivers. Now all the labels are true type fonts so they all are antialiased against whatever background terrain. That makes them appear very crisp to the human eye. That was done by programmers better than I who really got into the nitty-gritty of fonts (a world in an of itself - their is a magazine deciated just to fonts). Getting the rivers to appear as crisp involves a whole lot more work (many months).

On your suggestion, I'll play around with the 3 shades of blue I am using. Following the paper map seemed like a good idea, but since we have changed all the backgrounds/terrain against which they appear, perhaps something else will look better.

--------
Rail lines.

I am using 2 colors here, a pale yellow and a dark brown. I played around with 30 or 40 different colors in different combinations, including things like pink and lavender, just to see what would happen. Many of the combinations make the rail lines too dominate (substituting black for brown for instance, or a stronger yellow for the pale yellow).

The thinness of the rail makes this especially hard to do when done in combnation for all 8 levels of zone. I have gone with a thickness about the same as the rivers. A little thicker actually; on the paper maps the rail lines are little thinner. These are very subtle differences though. What I am doing now is using different thicknesses for the rail lines at different levels of zoom. The changes are only a single pixel, so they all look the same to the human eye. The reason I am using different sizes is to avoid the outlines disappearing. The multiple angles the rail lines trace on the map can make things go awry.

I do not have canned software routines for drawing outlined lines of varying thickness, with cross hatch. I created all my own from scratch. Again the size of the 'crossties' was a major problem. If it is too thin, they disappear. If they are too thick, they become splotchy. The whole thing is way too far into the artistic realm for my disposition and training. Math and geometry I understand completely, colors ... not so much.

But still, after working with the rivers, I know that my decision to do the rail lines with software rather than as overlays, was the right one. Besides saving the time and effort they would have required from the artist, rendering them as bitmap overlays on the screen wouldn't have been feasible.
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: amwild
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: amwild
I thought that in the atlantic and mediteranean at least, you could overlay the hex dots and sea-box info over a copy of the Kriegsmarine position chart - you know, the one where you describe a location with two letters followed by two numbers, e.g. Malta is CN34, New York is CA51, etc... I don't know if ther is any similar sort of chart for the pacific or other ocean areas.

Whatever you decide to use as decoration in open sea areas, I would suggest that you have an option to toggle this decoration on or off, and make it clear in the options and help files that this decoration has no game effect.

Actually, my total knowledge concerning Kriegsmarine charts comes from what you wrote in your post. They talk about blissful ignorance, and I am a happy kind of guy.

So, you will have to give me a better understanding of what you envision. Would there be one identifier per sea area? Or more? Would the font size be the same as for the sea area or smaller - if smaller, comparable to the size which other map labels?

Steve,

I have since done some more research, and there are some sites that give more details on the Kriegsmarine charts:

http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ ... ture6.html
http://uboat.net/maps/grid.html
http://home.att.net/~rodney.j.martin/gridmap.htm

Unfortunately, even though it is stated that these charts were made for the entire world's seas, I have only ever seen them for the Atlantic - on the net or otherwise. I have copies of the atlantic maps from the sub-sim games "Aces of the Deep" and "Silent Hunter III", though scanning them and sending you an electronic copy would result in a rather large set of files, and might breach copyright.

The Kriegsmarine grid system does not correspond to the sea areas used in WiF. Since you were talking about decoration, I thought that overlaying a version of the grid onto empty sea areas would be an artistic touch relevant to the WWII period.

I thought that if the grid was painted over the map as vector art plus text, its size would be relatively small compared to a bitmap. Of course, if you are having frame rate problems, these charts or any other decoration probably won't help.

Thanks. So now I know a smidgen about the Kriegsmarine grid system.

For MWIF, I have trouble seeing how to incorporate it. Doing so would add historical verisimilitude, which is a big plus. There is the problem of it overwhelming everything else though. And just doing tidbits of it seems inappropriate. The strength of the system is its all inclusive solution to locating specific points in the ocean in a system that is easier to grasp than longitude and latitude. Displaying the numbers in a few locations would look weird (IMO). It also would call into question the MWIF map of the world - if it didn't align perfectly with the Kriegsmarine map.

I'll keep it in mind, for I like its historical links.
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by mlees »

Aside from #5 I am going to wait and see what the beta testers say. It is very difficult to run timing studies when everything happens so fast. For example, a complete scroll from London to Moscow at the lowest resolution (zoom level 1), with everything on, takes about 8 seconds. My ability to control the stopwatch and detect when Moscow appears is poor, so that is an average of a set of bad measurements. The London to Moscow section of the map has the greatest concentration of map elements so it is the slowest test I could devise.

Did you time this with units on the map as well? I imagine that they will slow things up a little as well, especially when you are zoomed in close enough to see the "scanned" planes-in-flames pictures...
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: mlees
Aside from #5 I am going to wait and see what the beta testers say. It is very difficult to run timing studies when everything happens so fast. For example, a complete scroll from London to Moscow at the lowest resolution (zoom level 1), with everything on, takes about 8 seconds. My ability to control the stopwatch and detect when Moscow appears is poor, so that is an average of a set of bad measurements. The London to Moscow section of the map has the greatest concentration of map elements so it is the slowest test I could devise.

Did you time this with units on the map as well? I imagine that they will slow things up a little as well, especially when you are zoomed in close enough to see the "scanned" planes-in-flames pictures...


No, I didn't.

At the present I do not have the high res air and naval units with which to do that. It shouldn't be much different from the other units though. All the units at high resolution have some processing associated with rendering them on the map. The air and naval bitmaps are probably slightly faster to draw than all the bits and pieces of the land units - just a guess.

Of course, I haven't timed the screen refresh using any units yet! I'll get around to it soon. I was focused directly on making the map refresh faster, since that was the fundamental problem.
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by Ballista »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: Ballista
The maps are looking great ! One thing though- would it be possible to "lighten" the rivers a bit so that they stand out a little more- they appear to fade into the background terrain a bit (or is this because of the screenshot process, or just my fading eyes ?).....

- Don

The artist supplied me with the equivalent of scanned images from the WIF FE paper maps. The colors for the rivers are basically 2 on the paper maps: an interior light blue and a dark blue outline. The computer translates this into a screen image using anti-aliasing and there are 30 or 40 different shades of blue in the images I received. The anti-aliasing was done against a white background.

What I have done is use 3 shades of blue, matching the 2 from the paper map exactly and adding a third, lighter shade for some of the anti-aliasing effects. These bitmaps take up an enormous amount of room and I have compressed them to 4 colors (no river/lake being the 4th) and done several other programming tricks to reduce the amount of memory they need. As always there are tradeoffs between memory, speed, and functionality. In this case the functionality is the rendered image on the screen. Speed is the refresh rate, and memory is the constraint imposed by Microsoft on the 'amount' of bitmaps available at one time in program memory. I am pushing all 3 of those constraints pretty hard.

So, I have complete control over changing the 3 shades of blue, but beyond that, I do not feel like investing any more time. For example, I could make the rivers the same color as the blue of the label for the rivers. Now all the labels are true type fonts so they all are antialiased against whatever background terrain. That makes them appear very crisp to the human eye. That was done by programmers better than I who really got into the nitty-gritty of fonts (a world in an of itself - their is a magazine deciated just to fonts). Getting the rivers to appear as crisp involves a whole lot more work (many months).

On your suggestion, I'll play around with the 3 shades of blue I am using. Following the paper map seemed like a good idea, but since we have changed all the backgrounds/terrain against which they appear, perhaps something else will look better.

(...)

I think the non-straight rail lines rock ! Keep up the good work (and don't ignore the most important things- family, friends, golf. etc etc.... [:)]

I just had a thought (and not an original one at that...). How hard would it be for the orient the River names toted at angles (maybe 60 degree angles) so as to make them stand out, but not on the same visual "plane" as the city and country names ?
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by Ballista »

Just re-read what I wrote and think a picture is better than words. I couldn't exactly match the font and size, but I put some examples on the map.

(Note- not sure how this Jpg will look, as its the 1st one I've uploaded here.)


Saone- ran out of space. Did the other 2 rivers though.

Image

I left the other labels in place (couldn't figure an easy way to remove them without seriously defacing the image.)

Just some food for thought.....
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

Every time I have tried to understand the documentation (Microsoft's) on placing text at an angle I have come away very frustrated. Either the people who write that stuff do not know what they are writing about, have no grasp of the English language, use acronyms without any explanations of what they mean, and/or make references to other concepts that are totally unexplained. Mostly it is a combination of all of the above. I am very close to believing that they have never made it work, or not ungraded it when they did newer versions of the software. I could be mistaken, but if I am, then they have done an outstanding job of keeping how it works shrouded in an enigma.

I have 5 or 6 books that should cover the subject, plus the world of the Internet at my disposal, but still can't make heads or tails out of how to do it. Just to put this in context, I have programmed for over 35 years and taught myself all 6 of the programming languages I have written tons of code in. Figuring things out is what I do for a living. Microsoft documentation is about as low in my estimation as it is possible to get.

Slanting text is very hard. If the visual were a single size, then it would be no problem. But zooming in and out makes things very tricky when employing anti-aliasing for the lettering. The straightforward rotation of 90 degrees that I did by hand for the lettering on the units can't be done as readily at 45 degrees.

I have trouble justifying the labor (and frustration) involved.

[Oh, and yes, this is a sore point. I do not like failing to master software techniques.]
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by Ballista »

I do not like failing to master software techniques.]

Don't fell too frustrated- I've become a MASTER at failing to master software techniques (hence my migration to Database Administration).... [:)]
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by cinsulan »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Microsoft documentation is about as low in my estimation as it is possible to get.

Welcome to the world of Win32 API documentation [X(]

You might have read it, but here is a link that might help ( assuming you are using GDI ).
MSDN Windows Font Mapping Check the Font Rotation section.

Keep up the good work!
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: cinsulan
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Microsoft documentation is about as low in my estimation as it is possible to get.

Welcome to the world of Win32 API documentation [X(]

You might have read it, but here is a link that might help ( assuming you are using GDI ).
MSDN Windows Font Mapping Check the Font Rotation section.

Keep up the good work!


Thanks for trying to help, but the reference is fairly typical for what I have found.
Font Rotation
An application specifies the desired rotation of a logical font using the lfEscapement and lfOrientation attributes. The main font mapper does not use these attributes in its font selection process—no penalties are assessed for candidate fonts that are not rotated or rotatable—but the shortcut method does not choose a raster font if either of these attributes is nonzero. The key issue here is that not all fonts, raster fonts especially, can be rotated effectively. Because font rotation is not a factor in the mapping, it is possible that the chosen physical font is not able to rotate as desired by the application. Fonts that do rotate are TrueType fonts, the vector fonts, and some device fonts. It is wise for an application that desires rotated fonts to specifically ask for a font that the application knows can actually be rotated.

How to actually rotate a font is not discussed. There are phrases/sentences about assigning/mapping different types of fonts and the bad effects that might result. but there is nothing about the actual code that would cause a font to be rotated. This article is also from 1992 and talks about the differences between Windows 3.0 and 3.1.

Look at that second sentence, it contains 5 negatives (not, no, not, not, non). What a stellar writing style!

All in all , it is an excellent example of the documentation I have found on the subject. It seems most "authors" (using the word very generously) just take what Microsoft has written on a topic, shove the words around a little, and print a book. Almost every discussion on rotating fonts will talk about the difficulties in assigning/mapping fonts. Who cares? I just want to take a true type font and rotate it X degrees. An example would sure be nice, the more simplistic, the better.
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by amwild »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Thanks. So now I know a smidgen about the Kriegsmarine grid system.

For MWIF, I have trouble seeing how to incorporate it. Doing so would add historical verisimilitude, which is a big plus. There is the problem of it overwhelming everything else though. And just doing tidbits of it seems inappropriate. The strength of the system is its all inclusive solution to locating specific points in the ocean in a system that is easier to grasp than longitude and latitude. Displaying the numbers in a few locations would look weird (IMO). It also would call into question the MWIF map of the world - if it didn't align perfectly with the Kriegsmarine map.

I'll keep it in mind, for I like its historical links.

Steve,

As long as you can find a map somewhere that shows all the Kriegsmarine double-letter boxes and their orientation relative to the world's landmasses, this should suffice if you can approximate their alignment with the WiF map. Since the boxes are not all the same size, especially on a flat map, all you have to achieve is a reasonable approximation of accuracy. The boxes are then divided up into three equal rows and columns. It's not as if the kriegsmarine grid is going to be used as anything more than decoration in MWiF, after all.

I also agree that it would probably be best to either incorporate the entire grid, or forget it entirely. A partial implementation would look wierd.
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by Anendrue »

Here is a simple explanation in English (hopefully not too simple). It has a rotating font code example in the middle of the page.

http://cma.zdnet.com/book/visualc/ch13/ch13.htm
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

Thanks, I'll try it when I get a chance.

Steve
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Ballista

The maps are looking great ! One thing though- would it be possible to "lighten" the rivers a bit so that they stand out a little more- they appear to fade into the background terrain a bit (or is this because of the screenshot process, or just my fading eyes ?).....

- Don

If you look at Patrice's picture of the WIF FE maps in post #438 , you will see the same river color as I have been posting in screen shots. I tried out a couple of variations and it isn't hard to make the rivers stand out more (darker outline, not lighter). It is the contrast that makes things stand out (light against dark). That makes the rivers a more forceful visual presence on the map, but I don't know if that is a good thing.

Steve
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by Froonp »

Maybe have the rivers wider so that they stand out more against the background ? Is it possible to have the rivers wider ?
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Esoteric reference

Post by Greyshaft »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
...Doing so would add historical verisimilitude...
Hmmm. I've only come across that word in one other special interest group where it was given the adjective of 'artistic' rather than 'historical'. Dare I ask if you know that group or would you prefer that I refrain from putting in my oar?
/Greyshaft
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RE: Esoteric reference

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
...Doing so would add historical verisimilitude...
Hmmm. I've only come across that word in one other special interest group where it was given the adjective of 'artistic' rather than 'historical'. Dare I ask if you know that group or would you prefer that I refrain from putting in my oar?

I have been writing computer simulations for my entire adult life, so the word 'verisimilitude' comes up a lot. As I use it, it means having enough of the characteristics of 'something' that it seems like it is the real thing - though it isn't. Computer simulations strive to achieve this effect, making things seem like they are real. The adjective historical can be added almost everytime the word is used in conjunction with MWIF. Artisitc as its adjective would imply there is less substance, but more glitz (correctly applied). For example, the lighting effects used in 3-D first person shooters add artistic verisimilitude to those games - they do not affect how the game plays.

Steve
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Maybe have the rivers wider so that they stand out more against the background ? Is it possible to have the rivers wider ?

Ah, an easy question.

No.

The rivers and lakes have been taken directly from the WIF FE paper map for Europe (you can think of it as scanning them in). Making them wider would have to be done by hand.

Do you think the rivers need to be a more forceful presence visually? I am open comments from everyone on this topic. It is trivial for me to do by changing the 3 shades of blue I am using for the rivers and lakes.

Steve
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by Cheesehead »

Do you think the rivers need to be a more forceful presence visually?

Not at the expense of a significant delay in the game release date.

(I define significant ... 2 days) [:)]
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RE: Maps for MWIF

Post by Ballista »

FWIW, I think it would be nice- but not at the cost of time better spent elsewhere....
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