Realistic or NOT! --- You decide.

[Feinder]

The above example with Houston was most definately exceptional.

I wouldn't say a dozen plink hits are dangerous. But 30+ "plink" hits vs. a CA can really mess it up. 50 or may may even sink it. It has to be in fast succession tho, and in over a period of 2 - 3 days (to maintain the fire levels). The damage is being caused by fires. 10 plink hits a day for 6 days will do very little at all, since the fire levels are quickly put out. But 30 plink hits for 2 - 3 days can do some serious harm, since the fire levels are maintained (or worse).

-F-

[Big B]

In the game, sure anything is possible - it's a game.

In real life, laughable. Leyte does not compare because those aircraft that attacked delivered real punch, hell aircraft dominated the Pacific War.

Houston would never have succumbed to a convoy, even with a large Ml....of course as Nik demonstrated above - most times in the game that won't happen either.

It was BS, but you get that occasionally, some folks like it some of us don't.

Hell in one game I had a single lousy 18" aerial torpedo blow-up the Warspite. A complete impossibility in real life (a single 18" torp can't get to the magazine on an undamaged Warspite), but it happened in the game.

All you can do is swear and curse - then move on.

B

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Hoplosternum

That is very interesting. I don't suppose you know roughly what the adjustment is? At 10000 are pen ratings 90%, 50%??

Don't have a % off hand. As we don't have access to formula, it was a lengthy trial and error process.

Hmm, well I can understand this argument but I think it is fairly thin [:)] The none penetrating hits do very little in my experience.

As well they should under the current model. My opinion at least for the reasons i listed. FIRE admitedly is a weak point in the engine and was admitted long ago. I would like for FIRE to have been more dynamic and capable of longer burn times and increased damage threat as a result. (including the possibility of uncontrolled fires)

I have had Akagi and the other 3 of KB who are protected from 500lbers take dozens of hits and not go above single figures in fires and sys.

CV's are a seperate issue. CV's with wooden flight decks should have little deck armor as it is the only HL that can represent this aspect. In this mod, 500lb bombs will penetrate all wooden deck'd carriers. The problem in stock was caused by CV's, like all other warships using their primary armor deck as the reference point. Works for warships, but not for CV's.....where the hanger and flight decks are the critical point.

And quite frankly I cannot remember a time that none penetrating hits of any number have caused any noteable damage. Occasionally a turret or torpedo set goes and the ship needs port time. Otherwise nothing [:(]

Hmm....i have [:)]

Good luck with it. I like the sound of all the changes you have made so far although I have not actually tried your mod yet [:)]

It will be there if and when you are ready. thx for the input [;)]

[niceguy2005]

I would agree that the above scenario is very unlikely, but mostly because in all likelyhood the Houston would have just moved off if she were getting pounded.

However, I have to agree with Feinder that 30+ hits would certainly cause damage. I don't know if historically there is even precedent for that. Also, I don't know a lot about ships armor, but I do know a fair amount about physics and I know that steel will weaken with multiple hits and after a fire. I believe that armor would become brittle.

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005


It's like the my BB Maryland sunk the Yamamoto with an opening shot at like 20,000 yards. BOOM, right into the magazine.

Yamamoto isn't sunk, he was shot down!


([:D])

[Speedysteve]

He could have sunk after being shot down [;)]

Depends whether he was overland (Bougainville) or the sea..........

[moses]

Personnally I've never seen such a battle. But the standard of proof that something might be possible is pretty low.

Its easy to envision. In a night combat the ML comes out of the fog crossing 1500 ft directly behind the CA. The initial volleys score a couple lucky hits which prevent rapid or effective return fire and the ML get repeated free shots at the now perfectly lit target.

Not likely to happen but not impossible.

Most battles of this type give massive damage to the convoy (as you would normally expect) and this aspect was I believe addressed in last patch to produce greater damage to the transports.

[pauk]

but then he could escape from being drown and swim to nearest base and go to plane again to be shot down[:)]

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Well - a lucky event for the convoy.

If the captain is really from StarTreck then he close in (500 yards) and tried to comunicate [:D] And the evil Klingons gave him what he deserved... i even can see the soldiers at the bridge, flying against some walls. Only that there is no energy shield and a comercial break. [:D]

[String]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

Ok, since you are using NIK mod 5.0, this could have happend....

Night combat, allied force gets surprised.
MS fires at houston from short range and penetrates her belt (NIK increased the pen values of light guns to give them the chance of actually penetrating the belt of older enemy ships), the penetrating shot hits triggers an ammo explosion (BOOM).

TF also fire on houston from close range, but the damage has already been done...
A one in a million shot......


Check the combar replay to see if I am right [;)][:D]

How many times do we see this happen though? I want the designer to run the lotteries.[:D]

I've played WPO quite a bit by now, which uses the same surface combat model, and despite having similar opposing forces I've never seen such outcomes. Neither have I seen such outcomes in WitP. In fact I used to send a singe CA (pensacola i think) to rabaul early in scen 15 to whack up the AI invasion there, and it did the trick every single time. Just a single CA, no escorts.

Methinks this is a fluke and that Ron just has a selective memory.

[Nikademus]

There's a precident. While true that shiips are not armored all over the place, neither are there critical systems all over the place. CA Aoba took over 30+ hits once that peppered her upper works and superstructure, but her hull was undamaged and her propulsion systems intact. She was able to retire at top speed. This is not possible in the game when penetrations occur because any SYS damage directly impacts max speed.

[pauk]

me either thinks that some of people have selective memory and every time then found some rare incident start to cry - foul, all is broken etc....

here is my example from PBEM:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/05/42

I've interecept his transports with DD and aux ships last night. PT and AK are sunk, but AK Katong hit DD Yugure! She is seriously damagede (39/4/9) and ordered to return at Java! Aux ships which were involved in combat gains experience and these which fired are now at 57 night exp... Akitsu Maru have moderate damage (25 sys) but she is at 63 exp now!

Commander of misfortune Yugure - K. Kamo - took the sword and prepared himself for seppuku but his crew convinced him not to take such radical solution. Observer on the Yugure, Noriaki Kasai told Kamo that AK was camuflated aux CL -not the AK.

"Besides that, you will got your revenge only if you stay live, commander Kamo", Kasai pointed.

Night Time Surface Combat at 18,82

Japanese Ships
DD Yugure, Shell hits 1, on fire
PG Akitsu Maru, Shell hits 1
PG Choan Maru #2
PG Heijo Maru
PG Keiko Maru
PC Takunan Maru #2

Allied Ships
PT PT-36, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
AK Empire Steelhead, Shell hits 10, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
AK Katong, Shell hits 4, on fire

...but i never it considered as flaw... actually it was pretty interesting and opportunity to make some fun in AAR...

PS...please dont come with arguments DDs don't have armour, especially japs destroyers had weak protection and they were fragile (+ quoting several examples in histroy) etc....

i can live with that

[:)]

EDIT: please pay attention to the name of the observer at Yugure[:D]

[John 3rd]

I just jumped onto this thread and noticed Ron's comment about a Balikpapan never happening within this game. I just had it happen against the thread starter (Wolfpack): 4 Japanese DD raiding Perth stumble on about 30 unescorted AK/TK. They cruise in and sink 5 of them plus damage another! There was a lucky hit that did cause a magasine explosion on one DD but all the others got away.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

For those of you who think that this is complete BS....remember HMAS Sydney.

I agree. However unlikely such a battle is, it is not impossible. Although the HMAS Sydney was a CL not a CA, her fate shows that these things can and did happen.

The reason I make this comment is that I want a certain level of unpredictability to be retained in the surface combat model, just as there was in real life. If every unusual result is expunged from the model because some people think they are impossible, then the model would be reduced to a boring case of "whoever has the more potent forces wins the battle every time", without variability or interest.

[Sneer]

me too
it is certainly not a "normal" expected value from engagement but it is not impossible - tough luck
...somehow merchant managed to light target and 5.5" ML guners penetrated belt armor at point blank - that's all - now I see a reason big ML got cruiser like guns

[Wolfpack_MatrixForum]

Wow! My most popular thread ever!!!!! [:'(]

After this attack CA Houston sank 2 turns later.

The other thing that I forgot to mention was that this was a second encounter. Houston hit this convoy while fleeing south and sank 1 AP and damaged a few others. Took a few dings in return. Retire was set to on so after that she headed towards Darwin. Getting greedy at this point I ordered the USS Houston back to Davo to hit the convoy again. She got plastered that time. So even with prior knowledge(yes i realize that the game AI doesn't have memory) of the convoy makeup she steams right in and gets spanked. [8|]

[Speedysteve]

Any idea how much ammo she had left after the 1st encounter?

[mogami]

Hi, The 35 hits mean nothing. What I want to know is what type of hits. Being hit 100 times by 20mm or smaller does little. (I hit PT's with 7.7mm all the time and do no damage) How many of the hits were with main btry guns? The Japanese merchants like Allied merchants had regular navy gun crews. The merchant sailors don't man the guns.
I intercept Japanese transport TF quite often with good results. (although I have never sent a single ship into combat)
As far as mid ocean intercepts they are quite common in WITP. However the game does not do the work for you. You have to actually guess where the enemy TF will be and conform your movements to intercept.
Houstons night rating is likely not much higher then the Japanese night rating. (depending on who was commanding the Japanese TF.)

One problem however is Allied players sending small TF to intercept Japanese early in war ends up training Japanese merchant crews. I have a few merchants in games late 42 early 43 that are over 60 in night combat. Mostly from combats with single allied PC/PG.
Now when ever an Allied sub makes a night surface attack it gets clobbered.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I just jumped onto this thread and noticed Ron's comment about a Balikpapan never happening within this game. I just had it happen against the thread starter (Wolfpack): 4 Japanese DD raiding Perth stumble on about 30 unescorted AK/TK. They cruise in and sink 5 of them plus damage another! There was a lucky hit that did cause a magasine explosion on one DD but all the others got away.

Balikpapan had Japanese DDs and a CL as escorts I believe. My point is that I think the model vs transports is based on the Action off Samar, where escorts always heroically defend the convoy to the last and are never out of position and somehow always keep the enemy, regardless of numerical advantage, from bypassing them and getting at the convoy. All escorts have to be destroyed to get more than a potshot at the vulnerable transports. Hell, in my PBEM game I had no less than three consecutive mid ocean intercepts on an escorted convoy and only when the last escort was sunk did the transports receive any amount of fire, despite overwhelming odds on one occasion.

[Feinder]

Actually Mog,

I'm going to disagree with you. You -can- get plinked to death.

I just set up a controlled test. Took the Yamato, and emptied all her guns (no ammo). Then took a Fletcher class DD, converted all the guns to 40mm Bofors (main guns, DCs, torps, the works). Also changed the type from AA gun to NavGun (AAA doesn't fire at ships as often as DP or NavGun). Put 25 of this "high rate of fire" DD into a TF, and sent them after Yamato.

After one round, Yamato took 312 hits. Since ALL the guns were 40mm, we know the hits were all of that size. We also know that NONE of them penetrated. She suffered 27 Sys Dmg, ??? Flt (honestly forgot what it was, but not much), and 35 Fires.

Seems a bit much for a stock scenario. It's not even Nik's mod where you're more likely to do damage (from what I can read from this thread).

And that was just one round. Either way, it's going to take her a little while to get those fires under control Even if she goes home immediately, she's going to have 33+ sys dmg, from being raked by a bunch of plinkers (at least compaired to her armor).

If you want, I can change it to a bunch of Lewis guns, and see what happens. But I'm guessing she's gonna get shot up pretty bad.

-F-

Code: Select all

FTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/09/44
 
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Night Time Surface Combat, near Woleai at 57,72
  
 Japanese Ships
 BB Yamato, Shell hits 312,  on fire
  
 Allied Ships
 DD Fletcher
 DD Abbot
 DD Ammen
 DD Anthony
 DD Aulick
 DD Charles Ausburne
 DD Bache
 DD Charles Badger
 DD Beale
 DD Bearss
 DD Bell
 DD Bennett
 DD Bennion
 DD Black
 DD Boyd
 DD Bradford
 DD Braine
 DD Clarence Bronson
 DD Brown
 DD Brownson
 DD Bryant
 DD Bullard
 DD Burns
 DD Bush
 DD Callaghan